Sole Authorship

[Ernie Swanson]

What does it mean?
I have seen it used by a couple knife makers!!

[mcahron]

It means all parts of the knife are done by the maker,except screws,pivots,etc.No outsourcing of damascus,mokume,etc.

[Ernie Swanson]

oh ok, I see...
Thanks

[halloween]

I heard it also applies for the heattreat, so that is also done by the maker himself.

[Ernie Swanson]

Ok, so if I do stock removal on a knife, send it out to get heat treated and tempered(stainless), get it back and I finish it with the handle,
Would that be sole authorship?

[mcahron]

No.

[Les Voorhies]

This sole authorship thing is a bit annoying IMO. There are makers out there who even make there own steel (I mean really make it from raw materials) and I think they may be the only ones who really deserve to use the term. I suspect this all came from makers who wanted to set themselves apart from makers who have someone else grinding their blades or even having blades CNC ground but then it seems like it went off in a bad direction. By the definition of sole authorship that I have heard, my knives are not, because I have some of my parts water jet cut.... whatever, I wouldn't worry too much about this label, if you design, grind and finish the knife it's your work, the heat treater can't claim it as his, the water jet cutter can't either, you told them what to do and they did it. BTW, I heat treat my own blades but if you send your blades to a professional then you probably got a little better heat treat than mine.

Now for the apology... I imagine my opinion started above might hurt someones feelings or someone will strongly disagree with my opinion and get upset, I'm very sorry, keep in mind it's only my opinion and we know what those are worth :)

[Ernie Swanson]

Now for the apology... I imagine my opinion started above might hurt someones feelings or someone will strongly disagree with my opinion and get upset, I'm very sorry, keep in mind it's only my opinion and we know what those are worth :)

After reading your post I found no need for an apology!!
You have very good points.

Thanks

[Mike Carter]

I buy Damascus in billets and then cut, profile, grind, heat treat and finish the blade. I make the handles, guards and sheaths. I consider my knives sole authorship as nobody else had a hand in making them other than providing raw materials (Damascus billet, handle materials, pin stock, bar stock).

[Les Voorhies]

how can I look a customer in the eye and tell them something is the best I can produce, if I did not perform all the operations myself.

So, if you made a knife with a a part that was water jet cut, you couldn't testify to the fact that that knife was the best you could make it?


As I see it, the difference comes down to whether your a maker who is a "bean counter" who operates on the premise of wringing every penny of profit out of what you do, or if your attitude is that no matter what the cost in time and labor, each knife that leaves your shop must be the very best you can produce. In my experience the former are the ones who try to down play the sole authorship thing, while the latter are the ones who embrace it. To be fair, I have seen makers who are both.....and applaud their ability to to mix business savvy while maintaining a "quality first" attitude.

after I address this part I'm going to remove myself from the admin list of this forum and ask Tracy to remove my individual knifemaker forum.

What your saying here is that people who "down play the sole authorship thing" are penny pinching bean counters who don't care about quality. That might be a slightly harsh translation of what you said but it's how I translate it and I suspect some other might too.

Speaking for myself, I have some of my blades and liners water jet cut (if I'm making more than a couple) but on the rest of the knives that I cut out myself I don't go around spouting about sole authorship, it plays NO role in the quality of the knife.

Ed I've heard your a really good guy but your statements came out arrogant and pompous. Where is the humility and the free thinking to let others make knives the way they want to, why do some makers have to put others down? If you want to label your knives with "sole authorship" that's your business but to say that anyone who doesn't make knives that way are making lesser knives is an insult.

I apologize for my rudeness, there must have been a better way to handle this but for the life of me I couldn't see it. I have been shutting my mouth way too much the last few years so I will not apologize for calling you on this (except to apologize to the members of this forum for violating the "no drama" rule :o )

[M.Olexey]

IMO....sole authorship means nothing unless some buyer or collector is hung up on it. Sole authorship by a crappy maker will be a crappy knife. Sole authorship by a great maker will be great. Same way with the guys that send some stuff out whether its for HT or to have parts cut out. I send stuff out for HT. I CAN look my customer in the eye and tell them their knife is the best it can be and so can many other guys who do the same thing. I take steps to insure I can make this claim. Obviously I am way new in this world but I have not met many "bean counters" more concerned with profit than quality. In fact most guys will lose money before they turn out a poor quality product.

[Ernie Swanson]

after I address this part I'm going to remove myself from the admin list of this forum and ask Tracy to remove my individual knifemaker forum.



There is no reason to do that!!

What happened to Ed's post?

I do have to agree with Les in a way. but I can see it both ways.

There are alot of makers out there that do everything, even make steel from raw materiels. they should be able to say there knives are sole authorship.
but there are also makers who buy steel and then do everything, then say their knives are sole authorship.

If I were to make every aspect of a knife except for making the steel and heat treat, why cant it be considered sole authorship?
I know there are alot of makers out there that would look down on me for calling those knives sole authorship.
Why, because I do not have the tools, training to do one step?

After reading the few posts on here I came to the conclusion that the words sole authorship is used for personal reward, thats fine but there is no reason to put down any other maker because they might have gotten their blades cut out for them or even like me gotten them heat treated by someone else.

Honestly is seems more like a money making phrase than anything else to say ones knives are not better than the maker using it.

I am sorry if my post makes anyone mad or upset, I did not want an argument to start, so I am sorry for that!!2thumbs

[EdCaffreyMS]

I deleted my own post on this subject. I tried to write a post in such a way as to express my own opinions, while at the same time not offending anyone...but I think I failed miserably.
Deleting my post seemed like the best way to correct things. I openly apologize to anyone who took offense to my opinions on this subject.

[Steven Kelly]

I am one of those who has always claimed "sole Authorship" on the knives that I build all myself. I have never tried to use it as any kind of selling point. I do not smelt my own steel nor grow my own trees for handle material.
I do however make my own Damascus, do all my own H/T and make my sheaths.
I also do build knives where I have some of the parts water jet cut.
I do not claim "sole authorship" on those knives.
I think this topic goes along well with the whole "Custom/Midtek" argument.
As long as a person is honest with their customers, and allows their customers to make educated informed opinions about the products they are purchasing, then it really doesn't matter much what kind of title you as a maker put on that product.

[jkf96a]

As long as a person is honest with their customers, and allows their customers to make educated informed opinions about the products they are purchasing, then it really doesn't matter much what kind of title you as a maker put on that product.

I'm a nobody in the knife world, but that makes a lot of sense, right there.

[Mike Carter]

I look at it this way. I didn't make the Damascus, I bought it. That slab of Damascus might have been made into anyhting. I made it into a knife.

If I had bought it pre-cut and profiled as a knife blade that might be a different story.

Personally I don't think it makes a bit of difference if a maker has his blanks cut on a waterjet or if he stands at the bandsaw and cuts it out provided that it is cut from good steel. It's not a knife until someone grinds the blade. It's not a good knife until it is properly heat treated and tempered.

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what I think about sole authorship. It does matter what the customer and collectors think about it. To some, it is very important.

I do think it gets into a gray area as far as sole authorship if one has guards and other parts pre-cut. At what point do you start assembling a kit rather than making a knife?

[Les Voorhies]

I just want to make it clear that I'm not leaving knifedogs, I've just given up my admin permissions. Somehow I failed to delete my title so I'll ask Tracy to fix that.

I hope maybe we can let this subject die and slip into the archives. We're all spending way too much time in front of the computer, get back to work :)

[RAGUEL3]

I dont see a reason for either Mr Ed, or Mr V to leave or change titles.
Opinions are opinions, they dont have to match to co-exist here ,and you arent married :)
Agree to disagree,and let it ride ,... neither of you said anything to each other that isnt forgettable in the long run.
Why dont we just lock this one off for now Admins,and go get some food?

[Denny Eller]

'tis the season to be jolly!

[Ernie Swanson]

I agree, everyone needs to agree to disagree,

Les I did not ask the question to get an answer and for you to give up you moderator badge, and you should not, just because you have an opinion!!

Everyone knows what everyone thinks about opinions........................

I did get my answer to the origiaonal question with the frist post.

Please can a mod or admin lock this thread so there is no more argument.
I would but I cannot!!

[Les George]

Are you freakin kidding me? locked - Stand by.

[Les George]

The hardest thing we do as human beings is communicate. What we have here, is a failure to communicate.

This is one of those questions that comes up from time to time and can go one of two ways, it can cause a nice lively debate among grown-ups or it can go to name calling like a bunch of whiny children arguing about how's dad can beat up whos.....

I think there are a lot of very human emotions and insecurities involved in the lashing out. Thus is the nature of the beast...

EVERY maker puts a lot into their knives. The guy that is posting his 2nd knife is not less invested in that knife that I am in the knife that I am making today. These emotional attachments are what make us act crazy at times. That and money. ;)

As for my .02, I offer this. I was in a natural history museum once and there was a quote on the wall that said, "if you want to make something from scratch, first you much create the entire universe."

This means that everyone starts with something. The way of the world is that everyone has to "label" their work as they see fit. Everyone is free to use whatever label they like and not be wrong, so long as they qualify what it means to them.

Simply put, be honest and straight forward with what you do and if your customer is happy with the result, then who is another maker to call foul? How can honest maker + happy customer = bad?

Beware the man that says their way is the only right way, in my opinion they probably have selfish motives and in my experience they are dangerous.

This thread will remain closed unless Tracy decides to open it again, if anyone would like to discuss it further, my phone number is 361-288-9777.

Thank you for your consideration,
Les
:bud:

[GLWJ/CK]

I've watched this all I can stand, so I'll put my $0.02 in. The word author is defined both as "the person who originates or gives existence to anything" and that authorship determines responsibility for what is created.


That being said, everyone will look at this differently. An opinion is just that. All that matters is the end result you achieve. If you and the customer are happy with the finished product--great. If you feel that the knife was produced with sole authorship and you are comfortable saying that, claim it. I applaud the maker that produces his own damascus or steel, forges it out and does every single thing in house. I can't do it. Doubt I ever will. So I guess I have sole authorship on my knife designs, but I do farm some stuff out that I can't do here for several reasons. I still finish each knife by hand and feel good about the end result. Mr. Voorhies uses my services along with around 500 other makers. He makes some outstanding knives. I didn't make them for him. This is kinda the same thought of is it "custom" or is it "mid-tech". Who cares. My knives are custom! No two are alike. Make a fine product and disclose your processes. Just strive to do a better job each and ever time. ------Am I gonna get a "time out" for this?------