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kevin - the professor
12-08-2011, 09:05 PM
I posted this in another place, but I don't think anyone will see it, hardly. It is buried in a thread about o1.

The issue here is that Kevin Cashen has consented to prepare us a basic or intro heat treating resource, if there is interest. So, please let the rest of the forum know if you would like to have a resource like this. See below:

Hey - Everyone - Please let the rest of us know - ARE YOU INTERESTED IN Kevin Cashen (not me) pulling together a few PRIMER type posts on the basics of heat treating?
Things like
*HOW TO HEAT TREAT SIMPLE MEDIUM, MED HIGH, AND HIGH CARBON steels
*The EFFECTS OF ALLOYING ELEMENTS
* QUENCHING

I would personally love to see this written in simple terms and in one place. For those who don't know, Kevin has spent years STUDYING AND TESTING different aspects of heat treatment. He is a very artistic and talented smith/cutler, but he has also taken a combination of workman and scientist approach to learning this stuff. So, he is in a great position to provide the rest of us with insights that were gained from reading/studying but which have also been fairly rigorously-tested in the shop and in labs (and his own sort of hybrid shop-lab thingee his wife let him build).

Most of the time, people avoid posting if the answer to the question "Yeah, sure, me too!" or "I like that." It makes a forum become cluttered. But, we are trying to get Kevin to engage in a fairly tedious undertaking for our benefit. So, please REPLY just to say "PLEASE" or whatever. If there is interest, then maybe we can get him to take the time...

thanks,

Kevin Colwell (who has only met Kevin Cashen briefly at a couple of Ashokans...)

Knifemaker.ca
12-08-2011, 09:23 PM
Yes PLEASE! :-)

HHH Knives
12-08-2011, 09:27 PM
For what its worth, I personal would love to see a series of posts from Kevin on HTing. I have always learned something from everything I have read from him. Most of it goes over my head, But I always come away with a little better understanding and what I have read so far has helped me and my HT process .

So Kevin If your reading this. Please consider doing this for this community of knife makers and lovers of sharp stuff!

God Bless YA!
Randy

pabloz
12-08-2011, 10:51 PM
Absolutely!!!

BossDog
12-09-2011, 07:44 AM
Yes, we would!

TASelf
12-09-2011, 08:10 AM
I would greatly appreciate that.

Doug Lester
12-09-2011, 08:27 AM
I don't think that we can have too much information on it. Kevin has done a lot of work and study on the subject and I think a short presentation would benifit us all. He has been tremendously helpful to me in coming to as much of an understanding of steel metallurgy as I have.

Doug

D.Douglas
12-09-2011, 08:52 AM
Yes,Sounds great.

Justin King
12-09-2011, 10:12 AM
I would love to see it, and think it would be a fantastic resource to have here.

Dan Pierson
12-09-2011, 11:53 AM
Please do it.

Michael Kemp
12-09-2011, 12:19 PM
I always appreciate Kevin's posts. If Kevin writes it - I will read! (voraciously)
FWIW - I have his web page on the subject bookmarked: http://www.cashenblades.com/heattreatment.html
which has links to pages like this: http://www.cashenblades.com/metallurgy.html

john smith
12-09-2011, 02:13 PM
yes I would like to understand more on heat treating carbon steel.
If Kevin would be willing to take the time. Thank you.

Darrin Sanders
12-09-2011, 02:16 PM
Absolutely!!!

Denny Eller
12-09-2011, 02:20 PM
I would be eternally grateful for a post from Mr. Cashen on this subject.

franklin
12-09-2011, 04:24 PM
Come on Kevin you now you want to. wish you would come back and post its to boring without you here my friend. But if stickies are all we can get ill take it!

Bill T
12-09-2011, 05:29 PM
Absolutly !!!!!!!

Leatherface
12-09-2011, 10:15 PM
yes please...

If possible, a VERY easy to follow set of intructions on repairing over heated steel

We miss you Kevin!!!!

kevin - the professor
12-10-2011, 03:23 PM
Ok, Kevin - you asked whether there was interest. We are all students of steel, so to speak. We understand that you aren't providing information to spark DEBATE or ARGUMENT, but just as a service. It will spawn questions and discussion, of course. We aren't asking you to take one side in an argument about the relative strength of one technique versus another (or one steel type, or quenchant, or heat source, etc.).:biggrin:

take care,
kc

cdent
12-11-2011, 11:38 AM
Hope it's not too late to put in a yes vote. I, for one, appreciate the tidbits that seem to start the bickering. So much of the info just isn't available elsewhere. No need to agree, but I think it's easier just to say thanks for the time and willingness to pass along hard earned info.

Thanks much Kevin, Craig

Kevin R. Cashen
12-11-2011, 04:43 PM
The number of all too kind requests and encouraging words of support, reinforces my belief that Knifedogs is one of the few forums where good solid information can be shared in a friendly and constructive environment, and thus worthy of all of our support. I was invited here to moderate so that I could help out with any information that I could. My personal ethics and my devotion to furthering knowledge in my craft, causes a failure to follow through with that commitment to weigh heavily on my conscience. But along with this I am also painfully aware of the discord that my socially inept typing skills can result in. Thus I believe that this forum is deserving of any help I can give but does not need the controversy that can come with my discussing it. My challenge was to find a way to provide a solution to both issues.

Here is what I would like to offer in answer to this dilemma. I would be happy to post purely informative posts of data and information resulting from my research, testing and shop experience that your outpouring of support shows you good folks have some confidence in. I will be very receptive to any request for specific topics in order to best serve the needs of the forum. This I will submit as a regular post as I am no different than any other participant, but it will be in a thread with a pole. I will submit only this initial fact based post and then allow the forum members to discuss it as they wish while I fulfill my other obligation as a moderator only (a referee observes, they don’t play in the game), and await the result of the pole. The pole will determine if the thread, as a whole, is worthy to be linked into a single sticky index at the top of the forum that can act as a catalogue for information that you folks find most useful. In order to make this a democratic, all inclusive, effort (this is not the Kevin Cashen forum, nor do I want it to be) I would only consider threads that are of at least 2 pages and receive a majority vote for inclusion in the index sticky.

Topics that I myself will write on will be based on requests and most commonly addressed topics on the forum. I will be happy to answer individual questions arising from the topics via e-mail (kevin@cashenblades.com). I prefer not to use the private message system because it is very troublesome considering the numbers of forums I need to keep track of and log into separately. But do keep in mind that I do have a heavy workload between making blades, teaching and currently working on my book on these very topics.

What is my angle? What’s in it for me? Folks who know me well know that I have a single obsessive passion for bringing fact based, verifiable information to the craft of bladesmithing, it is my thing, my crusade. I struggled for years myself under bad information passed onto me as facts by other well-meaning smiths, and I now cannot suffer seeing others struggling with setbacks that could be avoided with good solid information. If the data I provide feels contrary to your approach feel free not to use it, but please respect others who wish to explore it themselves. You have my pledge that what I offer will not be assumption, supposition or belief, it will be the facts of what happens within steel based on as many sources of metallurgical authority I can gain access to and my verification of these facts, through personal experience and unbiased testing and analysis. I only wish to offer this information, the visitors of this forum can choose to use and discuss as they will in a manner that respectfully fosters greater knowledge for all.

Thank you for your kindness, but now let's allow me to move out of this awkard spotlight and get to the bussiness of helping Knifedogs be the place people want to go to for helpful and friendly information. I have something ready that I was working on from the request in the O-1 thread below.

Edited to add- The idea behind this entire concept is in answer to stickies on other forums that many people feel are helpful enough to refer folks to, many of which are comprised of material that I wrote. I feel it is a shame that folks should have to look elsewhere when I could provide the same here. I am not a fan of numerous stickies filling the top of a forum so I believe the single index stickie is much tidier.

franklin
12-11-2011, 06:40 PM
thank you. Thats all i will say.

TASelf
12-11-2011, 10:23 PM
Thank you Kevin.

Knifemaker.ca
12-12-2011, 06:20 PM
Thanks for the post. It is a useful reinforcement of the information you emailed me a couple weeks ago on 52100.

I would like to disagree with your suggestion of requiring two pages of reply to include in the index sticky. The day before yesterday, I referred again to a post of yours elsewhere on the three steel types. My head hurt the first time I read it. (Most likely the rum more than the content :-) ) I didn't reply back then - or even this time, but that doesn't decrease the enduring value of the information.

Keep writing my friend, and please index it all in a sticky. If I don't respond, it's just because I'm socially inept - not because I don't value the gift.

Rob!

Fred Rowe
12-15-2011, 08:16 PM
I think of Kevin Cashen as the dispeller of myth and the champion for real metallurgy. He has attempted to put to rest much of the smoke and mirrors, the mystic folklore and the coveted, I know something you don't know mish/mash of metallurgical soup that we as knife makers must swim through in order to heat treat our own steel.
I sent Mr. Cashen an e-mail a couple of years ago thanking him for helping me understand metallurgy and for making heat treating an enjoyable part of the work that takes place in my knife shop.

Again Sir, thank you for the leg up; please share your knowledge with us, here on KD.

Fred

HHH Knives
12-15-2011, 08:35 PM
Thanks for the post. It is a useful reinforcement of the information you emailed me a couple weeks ago on 52100.

I would like to disagree with your suggestion of requiring two pages of reply to include in the index sticky. The day before yesterday, I referred again to a post of yours elsewhere on the three steel types. My head hurt the first time I read it. (Most likely the rum more than the content :-) ) I didn't reply back then - or even this time, but that doesn't decrease the enduring value of the information.

Keep writing my friend, and please index it all in a sticky. If I don't respond, it's just because I'm socially inept - not because I don't value the gift.

Rob!

+1 :)

Rudy Joly
12-16-2011, 01:03 PM
Kevin,
Your knowledge has much value to it, we all sit up and take notice when you post. I often refer back to your articles or posts to reaffirm my path when cooking up an unfamiliar steel . Do the sticky please.....lead us towards the light.

Personally, I'd be interested in a non mumbo jumbo piece on 52100 as it relates to proceedure specifically. The varied recipes have me second guessing myself after the fact.

Rudy

john smith
12-16-2011, 03:39 PM
Thank you Kevin Cashen and thanks to all members for there help and advice here on knifedogs.
I continue to read and learn on this forum from all of you, and carbon steels are my steel of choice.
I still consider myself a newbie and the termonology is one of the hardest things for me to comprehend.
Kevin I know you are a very busy man and I will take any information I can from you, just point us in the right direction. Thank you

DonL
12-17-2011, 09:50 AM
I for one would like to see Kevin publish more here on KnifeDogs as well. Even though metallurgy is right up there with electrical calculations and Calculus as far as I'm concerned (meaning I can't wrap my brain around most of it...lol), I still try and understand as much of it as I can!!

Pieter
12-17-2011, 11:26 AM
Absolutely!!!!!

clancy
12-17-2011, 07:55 PM
I will read and re-read every word.

ernie

Mike Barton
12-20-2011, 11:18 AM
Yes, Please!

Ronald P. Rochon
01-05-2012, 07:43 AM
Good idea. Ron.

DJJ
01-06-2012, 01:02 AM
Another Yes Please

Mkustom
01-12-2012, 05:14 AM
Please!!

Tom Militano
01-13-2012, 10:16 AM
I'd really like to see this posted also

martinjj
01-15-2012, 07:44 PM
Yes!!!!!


Martin

scott.livesey
05-12-2012, 09:32 PM
yes, please.

scott

C Craft
05-13-2012, 08:05 AM
Have you really got to ask such a question? Yes, "more please"!

rlowery
05-16-2012, 09:19 PM
Yes....

Kevin R. Cashen
12-26-2012, 10:12 AM
Let me end 2012 with a sincerest sentiment of my appreciation for the confidence you kind folks here have shown in my ability to help sort out the sometimes daunting task of heat treating, and the value you place on my input. Thank you, you honor me.

But now I have covered virtually all of the major heat treating operations with basic primers. If that is enough then I will help in any way I can with our continued discussions. But if you would like more of these types of write-ups on more advanced, specialized or secondary topics, just let me know, I aim to please. If that is the case- I need ideas! What would you folks like to see more information on?

smithy
12-26-2012, 11:22 AM
Sounds great. Thanks for the effort.

Troop
12-27-2012, 07:25 AM
YES! Anything and everything.
- Thanks!

Kevin R. Cashen
12-27-2012, 10:47 AM
... If that is the case- I need ideas! What would you folks like to see more information on?


Any ideas?

cdent
12-27-2012, 11:07 AM
Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the effort over the last year. I have no idea if it's even reasonable to mention, but I'll comment.

Understanding marquenching came to mind. I looked back at comments you made at other places and it's a tough topic for me to sort through.

Maybe bainite comments and thoughts on the various strategies to mix bainite and martensite. Tons of comments, but again tough to figure out what's going on with "up quenching" and delayed quenching.

Possibly a general equipment piece. Not plans and construction, but control of speed of temp changes and control of temp changes. Tough one, but I'm not thinking cost and preference squabbles, just thoughts, possibilities, options.

I know the interest would be questionable, but it can to mind. I appreciate polls like the stress relief thread that didn't quite make the tool box, but interesting and helpful in any case.

Have a great New Year, Craig

Troop
12-27-2012, 07:49 PM
A few ideas:

1. Sphereodizing hypereutectoid steels with just a forge. (In the event you can't put the blade in an oven at 1250 F after quenching into martensite.)
2. Using a "pre-quench" with D2 (A2?) in order to refine grain.
3. Forging stainless. Taboo? Is it O.K. as long as you don't reach austenizing temp? Is it too red short?

Peter Killgore
12-28-2012, 07:40 PM
I have one or two ideas. I haven't exhaustively read all you're written so you may have already covered this. My apologies if that's the case.

1) Poor man's quenching oils and speeds. How fast is ATF compared to, say, canola oil? Are there benefits to mixing different ones at all? For those of us who can't afford/justify buying legitimate quenching oils, what are some fast, medium, and slower quenchants that you can buy at Walmart? : )
2) This is maybe a little basic, but, when it comes to oil quenching steels, which ones work best with fast, medium, or slow quenches? I'm thinking 1075, 1080, 1080+, 1084, 1095, 5160, 9260, the W series, 52100... Those are just the ones that come to mind. Not exhaustive (thought that seems like it could a pretty big undertaking).

There's my two bits (and it's probably not even worth that much).

attila
01-17-2013, 03:15 PM
yes I would like to understand more on heat treating carbon steel.

thank you
Attila

KenH
01-19-2013, 08:54 PM
Mr Cashen, I think Kelvin the Prof said it quite well. I know there are a LOTS of folks here who are way past the very basic level I am (edit to add "at") "at", but I do think there are a goodly number of us "basic" folks who read the forum.

*HOW TO HEAT TREAT SIMPLE MEDIUM, MED HIGH, AND HIGH CARBON steels
* QUENCHING

Peter said it nicely "1) Poor man's quenching oils and speeds. How fast is ATF compared to, say, canola oil?" etc. and basic steels from 1080, 1095, and maybe 5160.

and my plead - Oh Please, pretty please write up this font of knowledge and share with us.

BTW, your sticky at top of this forum is very good. Thank you for writing it.

Ken H>

curtisk
01-29-2013, 04:58 AM
Absolutely!

scott.livesey
02-01-2013, 08:13 AM
kevin, these would be in addition to the excellent stickey at the head of this section.
cryo tempering: how and why and with what steels
poorman's rockwell tests
OTC quench oil
SAFETY AND HEALTH CONCERNS
scott

Michael Kemp
02-03-2013, 03:18 PM
If Kevin could address this I'd love it:
For those of us without digitally controlled kilns - or who are heat treating with our forge - are there any ways to tell when the steel is:
* hot enough for full normalizing
* cool enough that a "thermal cycling" for grain reduction has been achieved
* hot enough for annealing
* too hot - in the grain growth danger zone

(assuming any low-tech indicators exist)
I've been using when the steel goes non-magnetic as my marker for annealing - and "a little hotter" for normalizing - but I'm questioning whether this applies to all common knife maker steels. I use "a little hotter - but not too much" to differentiate full normalization temp from the grain growth danger zone - but it would be comforting if there are other signs one could observe. Even knowing that there are NOT any outward signs would be useful information!

Shane Wink
02-12-2013, 12:28 PM
kevin, these would be in addition to the excellent stickey at the head of this section.
cryo tempering: how and why and with what steels
poorman's rockwell tests
OTC quench oil
SAFETY AND HEALTH CONCERNS
scott

+1 No BS heat treating , plain and simple for those with an oven and industrial quenchants

01, 52100 in particular