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View Full Version : Ht'ing W-2 and Keeping the hamon off the EDGE!!!



McClellan Made Blades
10-06-2011, 09:42 AM
Hey Dawgs,
Got a quick question on HT'ing W-2, specifically- keeping the hamon OFF the edge, the one I'm working on right now I have Ht'd twice, the first time it was all the way down on the edge, so I changed up the way I did my HT, went a little cooler with a shorter soak, (the 1st time was at 1460 w/15 minute soak, 2nd was at 1425 with a 7 minute soak) th esecond time the hamon is half way up the blade and looks gorgeous for about half the blades length, (my son said it looked like ocean waves! Until it dropped back down along the edge.)

I've read somewhere someone saying something about the temp to keep the hamon off the edge, I don't recall where or what steel they were refering to because with 1084 I never had that problem. While I'm asking, with W-2 is there a way to keep the hamon flowing with the clay? Or is it better to clay up higher? So far with this blade I've had 2 hamons with both Ht's, looks kinda cool but not what I had in mind, I have spent about 20 hours sanding and polishing this blade trying to dial it in, it's already sharp from all of that! It gave me a little nick last night, the edge is hard, I checked it with new file and wrapped the handle and chopped a 2x4, some seasoned Cherry, and gave a couple of whacks on a log of Moc Orange (Osage Orange) no damage, I didn't sharpen it completely, I just set the edge to make sure I got it hard enough, all th etesting was done after one temper cycle, I plan on doing another one tonight. Thanks For all of yall's help, Rex[/

burchtree
10-11-2011, 09:51 AM
Is it a fixed- blade and are you heating up the tang too? What kind of grind, edge-thickness, etc? What are you quenching in? Some pics would be great --

Allen Newberry
10-11-2011, 10:09 AM
Could also be that the clay is applied too thickly.

McClellan Made Blades
10-11-2011, 11:40 AM
Hey Thanks guys,
I was beginning to think I had upset someone...never know these days.

Anyway, to answer your questions, the grind is flat, it is a hidden tang, edge thickness is about .02 where I take all my blades to pre-heat treat thickness. Quench was Mcmaster Carr 11 second oil, heated to about 100 to120 degrees, the clay is applied in even coats about an 1/8 to maybe a smidge thicker at the spine, with the lines going down toward the edge much thinner. Oh yea, I have a kiln that I do my HT in so the tang gets heated to a degree, I have always coated my tangs as well, much thicker than I do the blade, hoping to keep it from getting as hard as the blade. I can see why W-2 is so popular the part of the hamon that turned out about the 2nd 3rd of the blade is friggin GORGEOUS!! But, it drops back down to the edge about half way up the blade, I'll be sure and get some pics tonight and post them, I originally posted this from work last week, figured I'd have more folks chimming in with the popularity of W-2 and all, it can be a PITA. But the edge is AMAZING!!! I have a log of Moc Orange (Osage Orange) that I use to test the edge on, this knife hasn't been fully sharpened, just trimmed down a bit, well that and lots of hand sanding working on the hamon, it was bitting deep into the log, never has any of my other blades tested so well on Moc Orange, I usually just give it a few whacks to test the edge for roll, I know this wood is extremely hard and can damage an otherwise good blade, BUT! It was bitting so deep, it totally freaked me out,
John Samford came over Sunday, and I was showing him how well it cut and also wanting to test the area of the blade where the hamon dropped to the edge to make sure it did harden, and it definitley did! Maybe I'm being too picky, I don't know, I do know what I like and I like my hamons to be in that 2nd 3rd of the blade or at least well above the edge. My biggest fear is if this knife were to go to someone who used it alot, and had to sharpen it often, over the years that they got past the hamon on the edge and into softer material. Not good! Aside from all the normal things that could go wrong, my fear is that one of my knives could fail on someone when they needed it the most, like everyone else I want to keep that from happening, Thanks guys, Rex

murphda2
10-11-2011, 12:16 PM
The smart guys will chime in and give you a real answer Rex, but my guess is your quenchant. I don't think 11 sec. McMaster Carr is fast enough to reach the full potential of your steel.

JMJones
10-11-2011, 12:33 PM
I agree that 11 second oil could be too slow. Also my results with w2 ht with a kiln and parks 50 is that when you go too low on the temps you run the risk the hamon dipping too low or below the edge. I typically harden at 1475 for hamnon and 1500 on w2/15n20 damascus. I was actually getting an unintended hamon on the damscus becuase the temp was too low to through harden the entire blade.

McClellan Made Blades
10-11-2011, 02:06 PM
Well for the good news, I'm almost done with my vertical quench tank and I have 5 gallons of DT-48 from Maxim just waiting for it! I'm not a big fan of Parks, they're real buttholes! Just call them and try to buy ANYTHING from them! I'll be trying out the DT-48 very soon, I need to test my tank and once I'm positive it has no leaks I'll be filing her up!

Back to the McMaster Carr oil, I was under the impression that heating it up sped it up, that is the way I've always done my 1084 and 1095, and it works great for that. I know W-2 isn't the same as those, I also know it's very close to 1095 in chemistry, it is some wild stuff to work with, and man does it get sharp! Without even trying!

Ya know I probably should be happy with getting full hardness and not so anal about hamons, but I just LOVE puling a hamon out of a blade, it gives it so much distinction, or more so, character. I've yet to get 2 the same, even though I do my clay practically the same on every blade!

Thanks for chimming in guys! BTW, what temps do you all Ht W-2 at & soak time, and where did you get your W-2 from, mine came from Aldo, I believe it is .91C. There are some many different versions of W-2 from what I've learned, with some having Chrome in it. It maybe that I just have to keep testing it out until I get it figured out, darn it! I'll have to make more knives for that...but some guidance is always WELCOME!!!
Thanks Guys, Rex

McClellan Made Blades
10-12-2011, 09:55 PM
Is it a fixed- blade and are you heating up the tang too? What kind of grind, edge-thickness, etc? What are you quenching in?Some picswould be great --

Ok Guys, A little late but finally, I got the pics taken and loaded, I took them at
arms distance and used the zoom to get closer, then I cropped them so you could see the hamon, at the bottom of the edge, and maybe the one at more toward the middle. Let me know what y'all think, I included shots of both sides, the lines do match, much better than I'm used to getting, I am happy with that! I'd be happier if it followed it all the way down the blade!!! It would have been phenomenal!!
Thanks so much, maybe with y'alls help I might be able to get it the way I want it. Rex
BTW I just checked the pics and when you click on them they blow way up, possibly too big, but on my monitor you can see a lot of detail, so maybe it will work better for most of you all


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burchtree
10-13-2011, 06:09 AM
Weird that it falls off towards the tip. Are you moving the blade from oven to quenchant fast enough? You've got about a second to move it between the two. I'm thinking the tip started to lose some heat before it got the quenchant. Also remember that if you're using cold tongs to get the blade out, that will start sucking the heat away pretty fast.

McClellan Made Blades
10-13-2011, 09:30 AM
Mike,
I do get to it as fast as possible but I've never timed myself, once I open the door to the kiln, I get a grip on the tang and go straight to the quench, I was taught to aggitate it aggressively, so once in the quench I have to slow myself down so I don't get too excited and go side to side, but first I get it in the quench and then I aggitate it back and forth quickly with out splashing the oil all over the place. It may be a bit better once I get my vertical quench tank finished.

I know I've read somewhere, some mentioning something about the temps so the hamon doesn't fall to the edge, if this was 1084 or 1095, it wouldn't be a problem at all, but the hamon wouldn't be as active. I do believe figuring this out will be worthwhile, one thing I have noticed about this steel, good hamon or not, it gets super hard, and super sharp with hardly any effort!

With you mentioning that I believe I will anneal it and re-HT it one more time, this time using Maxim's DT-48, my new vertical quench tank should hold all 5 gallons, and I should be able to have enough in there to get it cooled down quick enough, after a few practice runs, that is. One of the things I advise newbie's on is when quenching a blade for the 1st time, is to do a few "cold" runs, to know how you're going to move, I figured that out after my very 1st blade. It's not normal to hold a piece of steel that's 1500 degree's! With this new set-up that I'm not accustomed to, I will have to do some dry runs to make sure I have everything in the right place and everything else out of the way.

Do you think annealing it is necessary? I've Ht'd it twice already, I did 3 thermal cycles before the 1st HT, any advice on the best temp? I'm not sure about the grain growth with HT'ing it so many times, annealing it should reduce the grain size if it has grown and if it hasn't it would'nt hurt. I think at this point this knife is going to be mine and once it's done, I'm gonna beat the H*LL out of it, test it out beyond stupidity, I may even break it to see what the grain looks like. Unless I get a wicked crazy mind blowing hamon, then breaking it would be difficult!
Thanks for the input, I know all this will pay off, and I do appreciate you guys helping me out, Thanks so much!!! Rex

Aldo
10-14-2011, 09:34 AM
Rex,

You need faster oil. Parks 50. I did a blade in ATF 2 weeks ago in Michigan(It was all I could get) I got a hamon at about a 1/2" up from the edge with "no clay". The w2 is a shallow hardening steel. This stuff more so.

JMJones
10-14-2011, 01:15 PM
You can also try brine if you dont have the correct oil. You will probably crack some blades but it can be done.

McClellan Made Blades
10-14-2011, 02:08 PM
You can also try brine if you dont have the correct oil. You will probably crack some blades but it can be done.

Aldo my Brother from another Mother!!!,
How did you get a hamon without clay or some other insulating media? Edge quench? Haven't thought of that. Personally I would'nt try it with W-2, full hardness is way more important than a hamon, I can say all the right things about how a sharp tough blade and all about quality comes first, >BUT<! I love getting a hamon to come out on a blade, as long as I don't sacrifice any of the forementioned qualifications, I'll try until my tennis/golfers elbows start screaming....again!

I've got 5 gallons of the Maxim DT-48, it is fast and can be made faster by heating it up, according to Lee Neves at Maxim, I have many issues with Heat Bath, I've told the story many times, and don't want to go into it again, let's just say my big dumb country butt called them up and asked to order some. You know what happened! They didn't want my business then and now they will never get it.....OK never might be a long time, but as long as I can find something that will work I'll use it, besides Houghton makes a fast quench oil that is great! I haven't explored all of those possiblities yet, if the Maxim oil doesn't get the results I'm looking for, I'll look there next. I annealed it last night, and tonight I plan on re-HTing it again, last chance for this one..., as far as it being sold, if I don't get what I want, I'll probably break it and check out the grain structure, see if I can learn something! Thanks for chimming in, You are still Da' Man! Rex

McClellan Made Blades
10-14-2011, 02:11 PM
You can also try brine if you dont have the correct oil. You will probably crack some blades but it can be done.

Thanks John,
I have used brine ONCE before, on my very first blade (which ended up not being my very first blade, it shattered!), this one is probably too thin at this point from being hand sanded half to death! I wouldn't say I won't ever use it again, I will say it will have to be either a desperate situation, or I just want to experiment to see what it would do. Thanks, Rex

GHEzell
10-14-2011, 11:43 PM
Aldo my Brother from another Mother!!!,
How did you get a hamon without clay or some other insulating media?

Howdy neighbor...
When dealing with very shallow hardening steels (and Aldo's W2 is almost as shallow hardening as you can get) this can and will happen even with a full quench. You just can't cool the thicker sections quick enough to get them hard. I didn't believe it until I saw it myself and spoke with some folks more knowledgeable than myself... Sometimes the hamon resulting can have quite a bit of activity, with no clay involved.

Some old (1000+ years old) scramasaxes from Europe were polished and etched and show active hamons... general consensus is that it was a result of the nature of the shallow-hardening steel used, not clay.

McClellan Made Blades
10-15-2011, 07:16 AM
Howdy neighbor...
When dealing with very shallow hardening steels (and Aldo's W2 is almost as shallow hardening as you can get) this can and will happen even with a full quench. You just can't cool the thicker sections quick enough to get them hard. I didn't believe it until I saw it myself and spoke with some folks more knowledgeable than myself... Sometimes the hamon resulting can have quite a bit of activity, withno clay involved.
Some old (1000+ years old) scramasaxes from Europe were polished and etched and show active hamons... general consensus is that it was a result of the nature of the shallow-hardening steel used, not clay.


GHEzell,

Great to hear from a fellow Alabamian! That is great info, my concern about that method is repeatably, and I have some, although not very high, expectations of what I might get. With what I've learned I think the consensus is that I didn't get it into the quench fast enough. And the oil I was using, so hopefully today with some DT-48 quench oil and some luck, I might get better results, at least something that I can put my name on! Thanks for the input, great info! Rex

BTW, you got a name? Surely your Momma didn't name GHEzell!!

GHEzell
10-17-2011, 08:27 PM
It is George Ezell, the 'H' is for Harrison, my granddad...:cool:

McClellan Made Blades
10-18-2011, 08:59 AM
It is George Ezell, the 'H' is for Harrison, my granddad...:cool:

That's pretty cool to put him in there like that, nice to meet you George. If your ever traveling down I-65 above Montgomery, let me know and maybe we can get together. Rex

bubba-san
10-18-2011, 09:54 AM
Hello Rex , Did the clay fall off near the tip ?? W-2 is a wierd steel to work with . I do all my HT by eye /color and lack of magnetism. It is a shallow hardening steel , I have polished the hamon off several times in my blade making ventures.
Because Differentially treated steel blades do not need to be tempered a lot , the spine if clayed properly will already be around 40 rc no need for double and triple temper. The japanese temper is in the fire for 30 -40 seconds or until blade reaches 300 f. Heat is a big enemy of hamons . A good measure for hamon width is 1/3 of blade. I would also suggest try a straight hamon ( suguha) . and then improve on that . W-2 is a water quenching steel . Try a small piece of steel about 6 in. long . when critical temp is met , try water quench for 3 sec. then right in to oil quench for 4 sec . That should really improve the visability of hamon. I never had much luck using the 11 sec quench on w-2 , I personally dont think its real good for producing hamons. Its just not hard enough quench . Good for quenching some steels but not water quenching steel like W-2 , hamon on w-2 steel only seems to come screaming and hollering and need a hard quench to become the things of beauty that they are . I hope this helps some . Good luck ... Bubba

McClellan Made Blades
10-18-2011, 10:57 PM
Hello Rex , Did the clay fall off near the tip ?? W-2 is a wierd steel to work with . I do all my HT by eye /color and lack of magnetism. It is a shallow hardening steel , I have polished the hamon off several times in my blade making ventures.
Because Differentially treated steel blades do not need to be tempered a lot , the spine if clayed properly will already be around 40 rc no need for double and triple temper. The japanese temper is in the fire for 30 -40 seconds or until blade reaches 300 f. Heat is a big enemy of hamons . A good measure for hamon width is 1/3 of blade. I would also suggest try a straight hamon ( suguha) . and then improve on that . W-2 is a water quenching steel . Try a small piece of steel about 6 in. long . when critical temp is met , try water quench for 3 sec. then right in to oil quench for 4 sec . That should really improve the visability of hamon. I never had much luck using the 11 sec quench on w-2 , I personally dont think its real good for producing hamons. Its just not hard enough quench . Good for quenching some steels but not water quenching steel like W-2 , hamon on w-2 steel only seems to come screaming and hollering and need a hard quench to become the things of beauty that they are . I hope this helps some . Good luck ... Bubba


Bubba,
I don't mean to dispute you, but with Aldo's 1084(v), I've used that same 11 second oil since I started, and it did great on it, it NEVER followed the clay, but it did make a really nice hamon. Now I know it's not the same as W-2, but it is the steel with that I have the most experience with. I have an update and will be posting pics next!!! Stay tuned the results are AMAZING...to me anyway!!! Thanks for the input, Rex

McClellan Made Blades
10-18-2011, 11:40 PM
Hey Guys,
With everyone's input and a lot of tenacity, meaning an abnormal amount of hand sanding, polishing, some cussing, whining and a little moaning AND cracking open a 5 gallon bucket of Maxim's DT-48, I was able to get a much better hamon, that is well off the edge, with some interesting activity that is really nice.

A couple of things I did differently,
1. When I applied the clay, I didn't do my normal 1/3rd's, it was more like 1/4th's, I basically kept the clay much higher, closer to the spine, and then added my little details by using a little more water mixed with clay than normal and drug the extra lines down toward the edge at an angle, or rather a curve...hard to explain, next time I think I will do a straight line at an angle to see what happens.

2. My target temp this time was 1450, I did a 5 minute soak time, I'm thinking from what I've learned from Don Hanson's many posts, is the a 7 to 8 minute soak time would be better and may help in keeping the hamon higher up on the blade.

3. And probably one of the most important changes, I quenched it in Maxim's
DT-48. I believe I got the best results from using it than I have with anything I've used to date. It came out harder than any blade I have quenched and no warping on a fairly thin blade (knock on wood!).

Now it's time to see some PICS!!

268092681026811


I did my best to make them a good size to be able to see the details, it may be pretty big, sorry the pics aren't the best but it's late!
Let me know what y'all think, both pro's and con's! If these pics aren't good enough, let me know and I'll set up my light tent tomorrow night and get some better shots!

Thanks for EVERYTHING!!! I couldn't have done it without everyone's help! Rex

bubba-san
10-19-2011, 08:14 AM
Thats cool Rex , no big deal. No doubt you should work with steel you are most used to . The reason it may not be following the clay is , it may be melting . Some refractory clay will do that . Try letting the clay dry over night . I saw your hamon on blade looks pretty good . Hamons are funny little devils , no matter how many times you do one, they always turn out a little different. Anxious to see your blade all polished up . Your Hamon is called Hitatsura Meaning ,, "tempered all over" ..http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/terms/terms.htm... Bubba


couple pics of hamons from blades of past work . steel is 1095, W-2 and tamahagane

McClellan Made Blades
10-19-2011, 09:05 AM
Thanks Bubba,
I either let my clay dry completely or I will set it close to the forge and let the heat from the forge dry it a little faster. The clay didn't fall off, even after the quench, I believe the problem was HTing too hot, Don Hanson says to never go over 1475, I was pretty close too that on my first 2 attempts, this last one I was at 1450 but I don't think I let it soak long enough. I will do the same thing next time but I'm going to let it soak longer, maybe 8 to 10 minutes, depending on the size of the blade. I'm pretty happy with this one so far, I haven't completely finished this blade, I took it to 400 grit, then etched to see what it would look like, I'll probably start over again at about 180grit and take it to around 900 to 1000, and re-etch. Appreciate the comments and the pics are fantastic! Rex

Darrin Sanders
10-19-2011, 12:16 PM
Lookin' good there Rex. Can't wait to see it once its completely polished out.

McClellan Made Blades
10-20-2011, 09:24 AM
Lookin' good there Rex. Can't wait to see it once its completely polished out.

Thanks Darrin!
I worked on it last night, I took it to a 1000 grit and re-etched it, WOW!!!! It is freakin awesome, I'll post some pics tonight, it is the best hamon I've gotten to date. I've learned several things about W-2 with this last knife, and I have another one forged out and ready to grind that will benefit from all the stuff I've learned from this one.

One thing that I hope someone might know how to address is that one side has the hamon moving up and down with nothing inside the softened top side, the other side, (the one I did last night) has all kinds of darker and lighter...for the lack of a better description, I'd say spots or blotches inside the waves going down, in the top (soft) side. It's not a problem, I'd just prefer both sides resemble easch other. If anyone knows what causes that, I'd love to know how to prevent it from happening or better how to make it happen on both sides, it is probably the nature of a hamon, or something in the steel that makes it happen that way.

Thanks again for the comments, I apprecate you taking the time, Rex

McClellan Made Blades
10-21-2011, 02:18 PM
Thanks Darrin!
I worked on it last night, I took it to a 1000 grit and re-etched it, WOW!!!! It is freakin awesome, I'll post some pics tonight, it is the best hamon I've gotten to date. I've learned several things about W-2 with this last knife, and I have another one forged out and ready to grind that will benefit from all the stuff I've learned from this one.

One thing that I hope someone might know how to address is that one side has the hamon moving up and down with nothing inside the hardened top side, the other side, (the one I did last night) has all kinds of darker and lighter...for the lack of a better description, I'd say spots or blotches inside the waves going down, in the top (soft) side. It's not a problem, I'd just prefer both sides resemble easch other. If anyone knows what causes that, I'd love to know how to prevent it from happening or better how to make it happen on both sides, it is probably the nature of a hamon, or something in the steel that makes it happen that way.

Thanks again for the comments, I apprecate you taking the time, Rex

Update on this W-2 blade, I did get the hamon work finished up last night, I was lucky to have my son the "Pup" assisiting me, so of course everything took twice as long as it would if he wasn't, still, I wouldn't miss a chance to have him in the shop with me. I also took pics last night, AND loaded them on my computer, but I didn't get in from the shop till late so I knocked out right after a shower, so I will either post them tonight or tomorrow morning. My step-son has a football game tonight, so I'll be tied up with that until about 10:30, maybe I can get some time in the shop after?....Doubt it, next I have to finish the guard, and handle, once that's done I'll test it some more before I decide if it is sellable.

Does anyone else get all freaked out about selling a knife that possibly could fail? Not that I think it will, the ones I sale and have sold were dead on with everything, it's just that I make so few that I'm that proud of, where everything is just right, am I being too picky? Or, is that the right way to think? I'm going to have to start making and selling more blades instead of experimenting and learning new stuff. Since the construction of our house has started, I will have to start making knives great enough to sell, on a regular basis! Or I won't be able to afford to keep making them....man that sucks! But a new house is worth it, I think..., if I knew I would have had to agree to stop making knives, I don't think I would have agreed to it, it'll just put a cramp in my knifemaking budget for a while, so I'm going to stock up on all the materials and supply's I need now, maybe I'll have enough to get me through the construction.

Anyway, I'll get the pics up tonight if I can, looking forward to hearing what you all think, I seriously want ot know that the hamon, or rather the softer area isn't too low, it has a lot of movement to this hamon, I've tested it with a file and it skates easily, I've chopped a 2x4 with it, but not with a fine edge, more of a pre-edge. you know before you take it to the stone. Thanks Guys....(sorry about the rant there), Rex

Aldo
10-21-2011, 03:47 PM
Rex,

Here is the "NO CLAY" hamon that I made with the W-2. It was a full quench in ATF. The blade was ground to about .210 before we started grinding the bevels. The Hamon came up about .320 on the edge and back about .650 off the tip. "NO CLAY"

bubba-san
10-21-2011, 03:57 PM
Rex , I don't think you have anything to worry about ! from what I have seen of your work . We all have failures occassionally. although I messed up 4 swords in a row , until I finally got one right . I was ready to stop doing water quenched blades . Ill bet your blade turns out to be a beauty .And Aldo you are pretty good !! looks like one of stewarts blades .....

Aldo
10-21-2011, 05:59 PM
Actually it's the only Bark River Bravo-1 ever made with W-2 and a stacked leather handle. Please don't ask BR dealers for it. It is definitely a 1 ott.

bubba-san
10-21-2011, 07:57 PM
Sweet blade !!

McClellan Made Blades
10-21-2011, 10:25 PM
Ok Dawgs,
I said I would post pics tonight, so here they are. As you can see one side has an amazing hamon line, and while the other side isn't dazzling, it is seriously nice. It maybe the Marine in me that demands uniformity, or my anal ways. Should I just let it go and not worry about it, or is there something I did wrong?
Or possibly, something I didn't do right. If it's normal for W-2, I can deal with that, if it's something I can control, I'd love to know what it is. Thanks Dawgs!!!

BTW, I added both sides for comparison.

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26876

McClellan Made Blades
10-22-2011, 12:05 AM
Rex,

Here is the "NO CLAY" hamon that I made with the W-2. It was a full quench in ATF. The blade was ground to about .210 before we started grinding the bevels. The Hamon came up about .320 on the edge and back about .650 off the tip. "NO CLAY"


Aldo ,
That looks nice but not as nice as W-2 is known for, also the big question I have is, is it repeatable? Can I depend on that method to 1.) get me a hamon and 2.) give me a differential HT? Answer these questions for me, otherwise I'll stick with my clay!! No disrespect intended, but with the amount of work that goes into getting a hamon I would prefer there at least be a decent chance of getting something to show up. I know there are no guarantees with
Hamons, but at least I know I have a chance using clay.

I'm assuming your point is that this W-2 is so shallow hardening that it doesn't take a lot to get a hamon on it, is
that what you're trying to get across to me? You know I'm dents...right? I know, I know, it's supposed to be dense, but that's a personal side joke on me!

Thanks Bud for chiming in, do let me know what you think about the pics I posted earlier, please!!! Rex

McClellan Made Blades
10-22-2011, 12:19 AM
Rex , I don't think you have anything to worry about ! from what I have seen of your work . We all have failures occassionally. although I messed up 4 swords in a row , until I finally got one right . I was ready to stop doing water quenched blades . Ill bet your blade turns out to be a beauty .And Aldo you are pretty good !! looks like one of stewarts blades .....

Thanks Bubba!
I do appreciate your vote of confidence, I know there will be failures from time to time, I don't expect to get it right every time I step up to the anvil, I do expect that I WILL step up to the anvil, with the expectations of doing something great!!! It may be that I have wanted to make knives for so long that my expectations of what I can do and my skill level aren't together, which is fine, one will have to get to the other eventually! Hopefully my skill will reach my expectations!! Thanks again, Bro! Rex

Darrin Sanders
10-22-2011, 03:09 AM
Both sides look great to me Rex. They aren't mirror images but they are both nice in their own way. I'm sure you'll get the look you're going for after a few more blades.

Aldo
10-22-2011, 04:01 AM
Just wanted to let you know what you are working with. As far as Hamons go I guess it's pretty basic, but I never really expected it to begin with:what!:

bubba-san
10-22-2011, 08:02 AM
Rex , I believe you hit it pretty good . although one side is a little different , as long as blade didnt warp or twist it should be a great blade. Getting the clay on both sides evenly is one of the hardest part of differential HT Using clay. I hardly ever get them to look alike , and I have been doing Japanese hamon for over 30 years. Your hamon it Hitatsura they never look the same ......

J S Machine
10-22-2011, 08:32 AM
Rex, I don't think I'd have the patience for this. lol

McClellan Made Blades
10-22-2011, 11:58 AM
Just wanted to let you know what you are working with. As far as Hamons go I guess it's pretty basic, but I never really expected it to begin with:what!:
Aldo,
So how did you polish it out? I mean if you weren't after a Hamon, how did you know it was there? I'm thinking during hand sanding you saw a shadow of one and decided to etch it, maybe? Also how do you bring out the hamon after etching? I have the way I was taught, which does work pretty well, but I'm always open to learn new techniques!! Thanks Bro', Rex

McClellan Made Blades
10-22-2011, 12:09 PM
Rex , I believe you hit it pretty good . although one side is a little different , as long as blade didnt warp or twist it should be a great blade. Getting the clay on both sides evenly is one of the hardest part of differential HT Using clay. I hardly ever get them to look alike , and I have been doing Japanese hamon for over 30 years. Your hamon it Hitatsura they never look the same ......

Eeeerrrrr OK,
So what makes it a Hitatsura? I'm going off what I've read and what I've learned talking with other blade smiths, and the main thing they were looking for was called (I think) Suri lines, I was told to get the extra activity, to drag the clay down real thin toward the edge or however I wanted to do it, but to keep the clay thin and going thinner to the end of the line, does that make any sense? I did learn on this one that I needed more lines and to keep them super thin, the hamon does follow the clay, just NOT where you put it!
Thanks Bud, Rex
BTW, do keep in mind that this is the third time I HT'd this blade, I had no twisting or warping, and the 3rd time I quenched in Maxim DT-48, it came out screaming hard, I think this is going to be some great oil. I have high
hopes anyway!

McClellan Made Blades
10-22-2011, 12:25 PM
Rex, I don't think I'd have the patience for this. lol

John,
you never know what you are capable of until you test yourself! First, I would have to say that you MUST have a love for Hamons, once you've gotten one to really POP! You will go for another one!!!...and another and another and...

Really the craziness comes in when you get a little light hamon and decided to start over hand sanding again and end up going through all the grits and re-etching ... numerous times!!!!

But do keep in mind, that for bigger blades like I do, the differential HT is the most important thing I'm looking for.

If you ever want to give it a try, just let me know, I'd love to work with you on something bigger than one that'll fit in your pocket! Just let me know!! It's not as hard as you may think, it's just a little finer finish than satin, I've gotten it down pretty good, it sometimes does take several sanding etching sequences to get it to really look good!
Come on, YOUCANDOIT!

McClellan Made Blades
10-22-2011, 12:43 PM
Both sides look great to me Rex. They aren't mirror images but they are both nice in their own way. I'm sure you'll get the look you're going for after a few more blades.

Thanks Darrin,
I have learned so much from this knife it will be hard for me to let it go, it is my first successful Hamon on W-2, kind of a mile stone I'd say, I usually save my important (to me) blades like that, for gifts to those that have helped me, so I'm kinda undecided on this one right now. We'll have to wait until I get it handled, and some more testing done on it, so I can take away any doubts that it isn't dead on! Thanks Bud, I've got another monster blade on the bench now, in W-2 that I'm working on figuring out which way to take it, this one isn't as straight forward as most of mine, I usually start with something in mind or a sketch, this one was forged out kinda "will-nilly", I like to just forge a blade sometimes with no direction to see what happens, just start hammering, and shaping and go with what I see in my head, sometimes they turn out quite nice, sometimes they DO NOT! Thanks Buddy, Rex

bubba-san
10-22-2011, 03:12 PM
Hitatsura is a type of Hamon where hardening spots are all over blade , The Japanese call it temper little bit all over ,

Look at this link and see if yours is a lot like this one ? go to link ,scroll to bottom go to far right , second from top.

I think it looks a lot like that one ?? I could be wrong . but, it looks good . Sori is curve of blade, Ishi are the little clay

lines that go from edge of hamon to edge of blade .

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/terms/terms.htm

McClellan Made Blades
10-22-2011, 05:29 PM
Hitatsura is a type of Hamon where hardening spots are all over blade , The Japanese call it temper little bit all over ,

Look at this link and see if yours is a lot like this one ? go to link ,scroll to bottom go to far right , second from top.

I think it looks a lot like that one ?? I could be wrong . but, it looks good . Sori is curve of blade, Ishi are the little clay

lines that go from edge of hamon to edge of blade .

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/terms/terms.htm

I think Ishi is what I meant, although I spent 6 months in Japan, I didn't pick up much of the language.

I have seen knives where their clay was what looked like stripes all over the place actually down to and covering the edge, which to me is kinda scary, I think it's different with higher carbon content steel like we use, I do believe that was Tama Hagne.

Go ahead Bubba, get me all learned up on this stuff! I enjoyed the Japanese culture, and had a great time while I was over there, Okinawa has lost practically all of the culture they originally had, but mainland still had a lot of people that would follow the old ways. Beautiful country, and the food was awesome!!! Except the curry!!! Thanks for the info, Rex

BTW I went to the web site you mentioned, that one is about the closest one of the bunch, mine has the blotches in the softer top side, the swoops going down have the blotches in it, it looks great...on that side anyway! I'll try it again, we'll see what happens!

bubba-san
10-22-2011, 05:36 PM
I think Ishi is what I meant, although I spent 6 months in Japan, I didn't pick up much of the language.

I have seen knives where their clay was what looked like stripes all over the place actually down to and covering the edge, which to me is kinda scary, I think it's different with higher carbon content steel like we use, I do believe that was Tama Hagne.

Go ahead Bubba, get me all learned up on this stuff! I enjoyed the Japanese culture, and had a great time while I was over there, Okinawa has lost practically all of the culture they originally had, but mainland still had a lot of people that would follow the old ways. Beautiful country, and the food was awesome!!! Except the curry!!! Thanks for the info, Rex

I spent some time in Okinawa , have you noticed they have some real pretty girls , on that Island ....:drool:

McClellan Made Blades
10-22-2011, 06:08 PM
Bubba,
I was there in 86'-87', most of the women I saw on the island were from the Philippians, they worked the bars around Camp Hanson, I was stationed at
Camp Schawb, the North end of the Island...
where they tried to hide us Marines...:shush:

The island was fun, until it got cold, there was a small island out behind our barracks, that we swam too, did some exploring like we were kids! We actually found some bunkers and saw <from a distance> some UN-exploded bombs, all of it was
from WWII. The swimming was awesome, the sea snakes WERE NOT! I did have a great time there, Rex

bubba-san
10-22-2011, 06:17 PM
Good story , When I was there in the sixties , most of the gals were half G.I. and Japanese . some were knockouts .

Funny how things change ......

McClellan Made Blades
10-23-2011, 02:26 AM
Good story , When I was there in the sixties , most of the gals were half G.I. and Japanese . some were knockouts .

Funny how things change ......


Dang Bubba!
I had no idea Okinawa was there that long ago! ......dramatic pause.....and... rim shot-cymbal.
Ok, yeah I was being funny, you'd been blown away by the changes in such a short time, the locals stayed to themselves for the most part, of course the shop owners were real nice and when we went further North to the jungle, for jungle training. That was my first time in the jungle and man that was an experience, I'd never seen bugs that big any where. Funny thing, the local ladies would meet us there to trade our MRE's for Yakisoba and a coke! Which was hot and tasty, why they wanted the MRE's is beyond me, but they were really nice.

SO what part of Japan were you at and what took you all the way over there, if you say Kadena, I'll know why. I did get to go to the main land for about 3 months,had some training at Mt Fuji, the spent about 2 months at Yakuska, it was a GREAT place to be 21 and single!

Oh yeah, the G.I./Japanese knockouts ARE smokin' hotties, they're called Amerasian now and sadly were just about if not totally disowned by there families then. Much more accepted these days but there is still discrimination against
them. I think it'd be pretty cool if we chewed some of the same dirt, just in different decades.

You weren't headed to Vietnam then were you? Keep in mind I have no idea how old you are, in case I'm thinking wrong, it is so nice to be able to chat with someone about Japan that has actually seen it. Appreciate the chance to
revisit some old memories you jogged loose, memories are a problem for me, and when I get one that comes creeping out from where ever it is, I try to hold on to it as long as I can, Thanks Bubba, Rex

bubba-san
10-23-2011, 09:55 AM
Hey Rex , Yes I was headed to Vietnam , I did 4 tours . I spent a lot of time in Yokosuka its a big steel port . I lived in Japan for 11 years and studied swordsmithing with my sensei Kayoko Kuroiwa . He passed away about ten years ago but, his family owns a shop In L.A. ( Hida tool ) they make custom chizels from tamahagane. I am an old fart I will be 65 in April.
I loved Japan the people, were so gracious and kind . Thats were I got the name Bubba-san . My friends and family always called me Bubba. My friends in japan started calling me "Bubba-san " after I forged a big Tanto . I have made a few trips back since the military to visit and learn. I visited the shrine at yakota -cho Yasukuni Shrine (靖国神社 or 靖國神社, Yasukuni Jinja?) is a Shinto shrine. It was a great experience for me . You know talking about Japan brings back a lot of memories. Thanks for jogging it . I plan to make one more trip to Japan before I get too old to appreciate ... Bubba

McClellan Made Blades
10-23-2011, 03:01 PM
Hey Rex , Yes I was headed to Vietnam , I did 4 tours . I spent a lot of time in Yokosuka its a big steel port . I lived in Japan for 11 years and studied swordsmithing with my sensei Kayoko Kuroiwa . He passed away about ten years ago but, his family owns a shop In L.A. ( Hida tool ) they make custom chizels from tamahagane. I am an old fart I will be 65 in April.
I loved Japan the people, were so gracious and kind . Thats were I got the name Bubba-san . My friends and family always called me Bubba. My friends in japan started calling me "Bubba-san " after I forged a big Tanto . I have made a few trips back since the military to visit and learn. I visited the shrine at yakota -cho Yasukuni Shrine (靖国神社 or 靖國神社, Yasukuni Jinja?) is a Shinto shrine. It was a great experience for me . You know talking about Japan brings back a lot of memories. Thanks for jogging it . I plan to make one more trip to Japan before I get too old to appreciate ... Bubba

Bubba-San,
First of all I want to say, THANK YOU! 4 tours is a lot of sacrifice to make for your country, I'm not as old of a fart as you are, ya know they say your as old as you feel, I know that can't be true, because I've never heard of any one living to
175! I know our guys that were fortunate enough to come home weren't treated like the hero's they should have been treated like, so I make it a point to tell every Vietnam VET I see THANK YOU, I can remember my Dad (Korean War Vet) cussing up storm watching the way returning vets were treated by college kids, the things they did to our guys that had just endured pure hell, was criminal. I can't keep thinking about the acts of those morons, it really PI$$ES me off. I know it may be long over due, I know it's very simple words, I know it's too little for what you went through, but again I say, THANK YOU!!!!!! Do know that there are a lot of people that do appreciate you and everyone else that went over there and did what they were trained to do.

It amazes me when someone wants to know why the guys called to war just don't go if they don't agree with it. In college I explained to a classroom full of kids, they were 18 I was 28, I had been out of the Corps for about 5 years and still wasn't de-programmed, that the vast majority of the men & women that went over there didn't join the military, they were drafted, amazingly they didn't know what that was! I explained that we were trained, practically brainwashed to take orders, when we were told to do something we did it, we didn't say why, we jumped and got busy right then, I explained to them a lot of the details that were told to me by several of my Platoon leaders just what y'all had to do and how ridiculous some of the orders were. I told them that if they ever saw any Vet, that they should walk up to them and tell them THANK YOU! Because it was them and men just like them that sacrificed everything to keep this country safe and free. So to you and all my Brothers out there, I'll say it again THANK YOU ALL and SEMPER FI! Rex

bubba-san
10-23-2011, 06:03 PM
Thanks you sir , certainly appreciate the kind words . I just hope after all the years in Iraq, that they just dont abandon the Iraqis . Thats what happened in Nam , we didnt lose anything . We perservered in every major confict there, never lost a Major battle , the politicians gave up . They didnt even have to fight ?? I am afraid thats what will happen in Iraq !! I hope not . Not after all the precious blood that has been shed . Same thing in afghanistan ??? seems like history is going to repeat itself . Man I hope I am wrong ?????????? It sure smells the same.. Bubba

McClellan Made Blades
10-23-2011, 11:19 PM
Bubba,
I do hate to get into politics in my happy place (here on KD!) BUT I will because it blows me away how inept our leaders have proven to be! I've got "insider" info on the Bin Laden deal, that totally sounded like the conspiracy theory whacko's when the next thing I know all of those involved on Seal Team 6 got killed shortly after I got the info I read. It totally sounds reasonable, if you want to know I'll tell you about it off list, here aint the place for it.

Yo-bama has already announce he is pulling the troops out by the end of the year leaving the normal 100 to 150 (probably Marines heh!) for the Embassy staff, Afghanistan as well. My feelings on this, is that I don't believe Americans should be dying for another country's freedom, our forefathers fought and died for our freedom as well as thousands of Americans since then. Assisting them to bring down a "potentially" dangerous (to us) dictator is one thing, but staying and fighting to keep them from the Civil war that will happen as soon as the dominate force leaves. Anyway enough of that, lets get back to my happy place, or dare I say OUR happy place! Besides I've got something to show you, it's on the NEXT post! Check it out!!! Yeah, I'm excited!!!! And maybe a little proud of myself!!! Rex

McClellan Made Blades
10-24-2011, 01:08 AM
Confusing as that sounds, I'll clear it up. Here is the very first W-2 blade that I forged from some 1/2" W-2 I got from Aldo at Batson's in 2010, I forged this Blade shortly after I got this steel, not knowing everything that I should have researched before I dove off into it. Anyway, the knife is really nice, it turned out very thin, and I thought it would be like a scalpel, well the HT was dead WRONG, I didn't get a hamon, which didn't upset me....maybe a little disappointed, but the knife turned out so well I was
pleased right until I started sharpening it, I figured it would POP hair off my arm, shave slivers from newspaper. My first test was on my arm, it maybe got 1 hair, I think it pulled it out. Tried to cut some card board and it tore it. It was then I realized that the HT was done wrong by someone I won't name...since y'all know mine! :biggrin:
Some of you all may have seen it, I've posted it before, judge for yourself. I made this knife to fit in the side pocket of my carpenter jeans, as an EDC, I have decided to name it "The Pup", after, The Pup, Tyler, my son. Don't know why, it was more fitting before it would hold an edge!!! Here it is before the re-HT.26909

So now that I know how to HT W-2, I decided to re-do this knife, I hated grinding off the Cocobola scales, but it had to be done and now happiness abounds in the McClellan Made Blades shop, Once I started the hand sanding, it was evident that this hamon was going to be INCREDIBLE!!!! I'll stop gushing now..just in case y'all see something that may not be right, so you all are the judge. Don't be shy, go ahead and tell me what you think. But try to be sweet, Please!

One more thing, I've decided to start making this knife and keeping some in stock, since everyone that has held it has loved it, Murph, I do believe I showed this one to you when you were here, John Sanford I do believe really liked it, I can't remember everyone that has loved the feel of this knife, it is easier to remember those that didn't like it, NONE! The new ones will be close versions of this one, as close as I can get forging, I have a few sticks of Aldo's 1/2" round bar still, we'll see if I need to buy more. I'm not sure how to price these, I guarantee they'll be very affordable, mainly because I want to get my name and my work out and in the hands of the folks that will be using them. So they won't be so expensive that you won't want to use it. Just a little heads up for the future.

I didn't have time to put the handle on so it's not finished but I couldn't WAIT to show you all this Hamon, I want to hear from Aldo and Bubba San! And of course everyone else, I'm so stoked about this knife, I guess you can tell.

I can't finishing this without telling everyone that helped me with getting this steel figured out, THANK YOU ALL for EVERYTHING. I seriously couldn't have done it without all of your help!!! Knife Dogs is my HAPPY PLACE, the greatest collection of the most wonderful people, knife makers and want to be knifemakers, like me!!!!

One more thing, in between working on this knife, it really didn't take very long, I was working on a new super secret project.....:shush:,
I'll give y'all a hint, it starts with D and ends with amascus!!!!!! The first weld was 12 layers total of 1084 and 15n20. This 1st billet will most likely be ladder pattern and I may split it so I can do another pattern I want to try. It is incredibly exciting and I can't wait to get back to the shop. So with out further yapping,
I now present you with:

The Pup

26918
26919
26921


Looking forward to hearing what you all think about the hamon and the knife overall, it's now 2:21 and I have to get up at 5:30, so I'm going to crash, I'm so excited I don't think I'll be able to sleep! I'll have Hamon lines dancing in my head, with my mind racing to come up with what I'll do NEXT!!!

Y'all have a good night, Rex

bubba-san
10-24-2011, 07:37 AM
That Hamon is killer, striking, I love it . You really hit it !!!! Most of my better work is on smaller blades , them big ones are a tad bit harder. Please send me what info you have on ST-6 . I have been out of the loop since 1994 when I retired from Navy. Send to berryman@socket.net .Or I can call you . I personally think about 50 megatons would settle our terrorism problems .no mess no fuss and no dead GI's
Bubba