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View Full Version : Where to BUY fast Quench like Parks 50?



feraldude
09-27-2010, 12:25 AM
So for hardening 1084 I've realized it is important to use a proper quench (thanks all for advice).

So, here's the $100 question...

Does anyone know where I can buy a small amount of Parks #50 or an equivalent fast quench (maybe houghson type k or 3440 etc.). I'm having a heck of a time finding any of them...

thanks,

murphda2
09-27-2010, 06:06 AM
Kelly Cupples sells Parks 50, but I believe you have to buy a 5 gallon bucket.

C Craft
09-27-2010, 06:53 AM
Kelly Cupples sells Parks 50, but I believe you have to buy a 5 gallon bucket.

Murph have you got Kelly's contact info?

EdCaffreyMS
09-27-2010, 06:55 AM
Kelly's phone number is: 509-949-5231.... he's located in Yakima, WA.

C Craft
09-27-2010, 07:53 AM
Thanks Ed. Wow that is one side of the country to the other. Yakima, WA. to NW Florida. I may have to find somthing closer due to shipping costs!
I have a brother that was born in Yakima, WA.

Kevin R. Cashen
09-27-2010, 10:56 AM
I can't tell you how much it troubles me to have to say that any more there is no easy answer for this. Just a few years ago I could quickly defeat any argument against not buying a good quench oil based upon availability and price because you could get it and get it cheaper than 5 gallons of any vegetable oil or automotive product. In the last few years a few things have happened- certain quenchant makers decided they didn't want to sell their stuff on the open market anymore and the prices of all oil based things went through the roof, and long with it shipping skyrocketed. So while I know that a well formulated quenchant is the best way to assure consistent quality hardening, I also know that it is not always possible for the regular guy to get anymore.

One of the first things we can do is abandon the fad of fixating on just one oil and expand our searches to a wider number of faster quench oils. I now make it a rule not to even mention Parks #50 without really plugging Houghton international who at least still want to sell us oil, just not always at the prices or quantities we want. Look around out there, internet searches can work for this, and explore the large number of other quench oil makers, just look for something with less than a 9 second quench speed.

Despite what my critics may say, I have never said that if you are using an alternative to quench oil that your product is automatically inferior. I need to lay my cards on the table and explain why I prefer not to even discuss alternative quench mediums if I can avoid it. It is because if ever I have seen a topic that is a true slippery slope that one is it. It seems any time one takes the step to discuss quenchants other than well made quench oils the standards don't just get lowered they get erased entirely and in no time you find yourself discussing things that can only be described as absurd. Many light oils will obtain the speed of a good medium speed quench oil, but quenching effectiveness is not defined solely by speed, if that were the case brine would be the only quenchant we would need. I have found some very light weight automotive fluids that will also do well as a medium speed quenchant, but the health concerns in using them need to be considered.

Viscosity and consistency in thermal extraction rate are critical so thick oils and sludges are just not going to cut it. Canola oil can cool steel, lards and greases cannot, that is kind of common sense. 10W30 is a lubricant not a coolant, it will leave lots of pearlite in your blade, ATF or hydraulic fluid may extract heat better but I don't want it in my lungs or even on my skin.

In short, we are in a bit of a bind these days trying to obtain the best quenching mediums, but that bind does not have to be as bad if we broaden our search between the two extremes of one almost unobtainable quench oil and ineffective or dangerous substitutes. I typed this response because I feel guilty for pushing a product for so many years that now is a problem to easily obtain. In the end all we need to do is make knives on the level we have set for ourselves, be that simply skating a file or killing a specific percentage of pearlite, and then be honest with ourselves and others about it.

Seth Howard
09-27-2010, 11:44 AM
I do not remember who right now, maybe Kevin will, but I do remember some outfit sells oils under their own name that are actually Houghton products. McMaster Carr also sells quenching oils and ships anywhere.


Seth

feraldude
09-27-2010, 11:50 AM
Thanks all, I'm in San Diego, CA so it might be far to ship from Yakima...I'll give them a call anyhow...

Is there a McMaster Carr that equals Parks 50?

I'm using 1084 so I figure it is important to get the right quench... When I use 5160 I use more "alternative" oils but for my 1084 I would really like to get it right...

feraldude
09-27-2010, 11:58 AM
Isn't the McMaster Carr 11 second too slow for 1084?

EdCaffreyMS
09-27-2010, 01:27 PM
I second what Kevin mentioned about not getting fixated on on BRAND......look into the "nuts-n-bolts" of the quenchant. Kevin wouldn't mention Houghton if it wasn't equivalent or better than Parks.....he's just trying to save folks some heartache.....and likely some money.

Dwane Oliver
09-27-2010, 05:20 PM
I looked up the stuff in McMasterCarr, here is a link
http://www.mcmaster.com/#0694600-quenchfast-oil-101408/=918xrv
Would this work on 1084 and 1095 , it says 11 second , but its got to be better than the peanut oil I'm using now.

gnique
10-03-2010, 07:22 AM
In one of my sophomore engineering classes I finally got absolutely FED up with how my professor was drawing examples of bridges in the board. Now you have to understand that you need to keep your mouth shut in engineering classes because as one of my other professors once said "I know structural engineering and you don't". That really was true. Not very uplifting but true. So, anyway, I couldn't stand it any longer and I raised my hand and said, "why do you always draw bridge structures with a roller skate holding up one side. Everybody knows that bridges don't have roller skates." And do you know what he told me? "yes they do"' he said. He was pretty surprised at my comment so it took him a minute to get reoriented. He said to me, "You live in Lewiston Idaho, right? You know the steel bridge that crosses the Snake River over to Clarkston Washington? Well, I want you to crawl under that bridge on the Washington side and draw me a picture of what you see. That's your homework assignment for this class session." You ain't gonna BELIEVE what I found holding up that big steel bridge - a set of great big steel rollers that were allowed to roll on a greased steel plate. So I think that I have established my credibility when I say that I have some experience with asking stupid questions and blurting out stupid stuff. It is with that fact firmly in mind that I present a statement and ask a question:

When a knife blade is quenched the only thing that happens is that a piece of very hot steel is plunged into a relatively very cold liquid. There are some details that attend this process but that seems to me to capture the essence of the whole thing. Now the object of the exercise is to make the knife blade hard. There are some details that attend this also but that, again, is the essence. Any liquid will work as a quenchant and as the liquids vary so vary the end results. In the vast, vast majority of cases it is never known what has happened to the steel at the molecular level. The blade maker simply skates a file on it, and in a series of tasks, finishes the knife. I know that there are details that I have not enumerated, I know that I have simplified this process to the point of skeletal and I know that ALL of the readers of this tirade are as cussed as rattlesnakes but I am an engineer and I need some information that I can use in my shop where I make knives that people use everyday. So. I use 1095 mostly. Sometimes I use O1. I have used 1085, L6 and 15N20. Is there a list or can a list be compiled that tells me what are the best, next best and next next best quenchants to use for these several steels. Such a list would look like this:

1095 best: Parks 50 / next best: Scooters Real Good Knife Oil / next next best: goat urine

O1 best: WD - 40 / next best: holy water / next next best: lard

Please, be forthcoming. Don't spare my feelings even though they are delicate and refined. But please don't give me something I can not use in my shop. I am a civil engineer. I deal in concrete and wood and steel. Real things. Things that I can cuss when I stumble over them in the dark. Thank you all, as usual, in advance for your help. I await your collective illumination. Respectfully, Nicholas Jasper

Kevin R. Cashen
10-03-2010, 08:20 AM
gnique, don't feel at all isolated in oversimplifying the concept, you are in good and plentiful company, and it is the oversimplification that has resulted in so much of the confusion and controversy with this topic. Here are two examples of misleading extremes-

1. The process is too much and so touchy that only Park Metallurgical #50 quench will get you to the perfect blade, get that stuff and you don’t need to know all the ins and outs, it is so wonderful it will solve all the problems.

2. Heck, all you have to do is cool the blade quick so anything will work, even the mud behind my shop can cause a file to skate and that is all you need.

Both of these approaches are flawed and oddly for the same reason, they assume a simple solution can replace the need for detailed knowledge and skills concerning the process. Our business has long suffered under the overwhelming desire and belief in magic bullets or shortcuts to success, when true success in knifemaking is no different than any other thing in life, it involves gaining knowledge and skills through massive amounts of study and practice.

The number one idea that keeps people from improving their quenching methods is the oversimplification that it is all about speed of cooling; if that were the case all we would need is a 9% brine solution for everything, it is hard to get much faster. But a true successful quench is incredibly complex and would take pages to even scratch the surface, so I myself will need to resort to an oversimplification- the most effective quench is one that gets you the maximum hardness via martensite percentage, without undue thermal shocking of the steel that is unnecessary.

Each steel will have its own sweet spot in heating for the quench and each steel will have it own sweet spot in the cooling rate.

The best I can give you for the simple guide is this-

Fast quench oils (6-9 seconds): W1, W2, 1095, 1084, 1080, 1075, 15n20
Medium speed quench oils (9-12 seconds): 01, L6, 52100, 5160, 8670m


ARGGHH! I was editing to give you some other information but it did it again! What key or combination of keys on the right hand side of the keyboard causes the browser to go "back" and loses all that you have typed? I hit it all the time, and it is maddening! Let me collect my thoughts and get a handle on my frustration before commin at this again.

gnique
10-03-2010, 09:17 AM
Thank you, Kevin. As usual, the answer generated more questions. Let's say you buy five gallons of fast oil and five gallons of medium oil. It follows that the medium won't work as well for 1095 as will the fast oil but how about fast oil for the medium steels? What happens when you quench, say, 52100 or O1 in fast oil? I have done this (many times). What took place that I was unaware of? Also, when (if ever) does a quenchant wear out? Is there a way to tell? I have used the same two or three gallons of oil to quench 30 or 40 blades. It is about three years old, left in a covered pan in my shop and has bits of metal, flakes of scale and pieces of high temp mortar in the bottom of the pan. The color has gone from clear to about the color of weak tea. It still seems to work but is there any way to tell if it is still as good as new? I know that I sound like a four year old but the fascination of asking questions does not seem to have abated with me. My youngest son is the master of asking interesting questions. I once told him that blackberries were spread by the birds. I told him that the birds ate the blackberries and that the seeds were designed to go through the birds' system without harm and that they came out in the bird poop ready to sprout and become blackberry bushes. He thought for a moment and asked me: "Dad do the birds KNOW that they are planting blackberries when they poop?" I am still working on that one. It raises all sorts of questions dealing with cognition and intent.

Jerry Bond
10-09-2010, 06:08 AM
Don't stop now.
I am using Mc Carr 11 sec on 1075-1080 @ 1/8" thick.
Now, if that 11 sec oil will quench 1/2" steel in 11 sec, want 1/8" steel be alot faster?
I don't try to be so dumb, I was born like that. [Shut up Murph]
Your thoughts please?
Jerry

Leatherface
10-10-2010, 06:55 PM
I am still waiting on theb haughton guys to holla back at me...

StephanFowler
10-12-2010, 11:29 AM
ARGGHH! I was editing to give you some other information but it did it again! What key or combination of keys on the right hand side of the keyboard causes the browser to go "back" and loses all that you have typed? I hit it all the time, and it is maddening! Let me collect my thoughts and get a handle on my frustration before commin at this again.


LOVING the conversation so far gentlemen.

I use Parks #50 for everything, but I also restrict myself to steels that perform very well with a fast quench, 1084, 1095, W1, W2

and Kevin, the Keystroke combination your having a problem with is holding the Alt key while hitting an arrow key (Left to go back, Right to go forward)

Kevin R. Cashen
10-13-2010, 06:58 AM
...and Kevin, the Keystroke combination your having a problem with is holding the Alt key while hitting an arrow key (Left to go back, Right to go forward)

Well I'll be...!!! I just tried it and that is exactly what has lost a significant number of my long detailed posts over the years when I didn't first type them in Word for spell checking and then paste them to a forum. Thank you Stephan!!!

My style of typing is to assault the keyboard with a flurry of random keystrokes of the general area of the letter I want and then do a massive cleanup later... in case you couldn't tell from reading my posts:3: Without your input I doubt I ever could have tracked down this problem, and not every post need be formally typed on MS Word first. Thank you, once again for saving what is left of my sanity.

StephanFowler
10-13-2010, 01:43 PM
Well I'll be...!!! I just tried it and that is exactly what has lost a significant number of my long detailed posts over the years when I didn't first type them in Word for spell checking and then paste them to a forum. Thank you Stephan!!!

My style of typing is to assault the keyboard with a flurry of random keystrokes of the general area of the letter I want and then do a massive cleanup later... in case you couldn't tell from reading my posts:3: Without your input I doubt I ever could have tracked down this problem, and not every post need be formally typed on MS Word first. Thank you, once again for saving what is left of my sanity.


no problem, I used to be a programmer for a living and to preserve my sanity had to learn how to navigate a computer without touching the mouse, I became VERY familiar with hotkeys, shortcuts, etc.

franklin
10-13-2010, 07:10 PM
kevin did i miss any thing what was the name of the 1 / 2 best qeunchents for the fast and the medium i came in late to this

D. Crawford
10-20-2010, 09:30 PM
Guys, why don't we get ourselves a solid answer on the McMaster-Carr 11 second oil with regards to 1095 series steel.
Last week I took delivery of some 1095 in 1/8", 5/32", & 3/16" thicknesses. Today I placed an order for 2 gallons of the
11 second oil. If someone with access to a Rockwell tester will volunteer to test the pieces I will gladly HT a couple of
pieces of each thickness and send them the untempered pieces for testing. If anyone has additional suggestions, let me know.

David

Jerry Bond
10-21-2010, 06:19 AM
David, that would be great and very helpful. Jerry

L. McAlpine
10-21-2010, 07:12 PM
I have a tester and would be happy to test them for you.

Larry

Leatherface
10-24-2010, 07:03 AM
Anyone got a contact number for HOughton in the dirty south?? They were supposed to get back to me but haven't

Grrr me reading Kevins work on Quench Oils!!!

I feel so Alone

Alone I Break

D. Crawford
10-24-2010, 06:10 PM
I have a tester and would be happy to test them for you.

Larry

Larry, that would be great. I should receive the 11 second oil tomorrow.
If you'll email your address I'll try to HT the test pieces this week and
get them shipped to you.

Thanks,
David

Troop
10-24-2010, 06:10 PM
Guys, why don't we get ourselves a solid answer on the McMaster-Carr 11 second oil with regards to 1095 series steel.
Last week I took delivery of some 1095 in 1/8", 5/32", & 3/16" thicknesses. Today I placed an order for 2 gallons of the
11 second oil. If someone with access to a Rockwell tester will volunteer to test the pieces I will gladly HT a couple of
pieces of each thickness and send them the untempered pieces for testing. If anyone has additional suggestions, let me know.

David

David, Thank you; that would be extremely helpful.
- Mitch

D. Crawford
10-25-2010, 05:40 PM
No problem Mitch. I think a bunch of us are in the same boat with regards to quench mediums.
I know we'd all love to have some Parks or Houghton but it is obviously hard to get, fairly expensive,
and I really don't need a minimum 5 gallons of it. On the other hand I know that my peanut oil
is not getting me optimum results - especially on thicker stock. If the McMaster 11 second oil will
give an acceptable result with 10xx series steels that will be great. If not then we'll know to ante up
for the good stuff.

David

R.Keith
10-25-2010, 06:46 PM
Anyone got a contact number for HOughton in the dirty south?? They were supposed to get back to me but haven't

Grrr me reading Kevins work on Quench Oils!!!

I feel so Alone

Alone I Break

Leatherface,

I found a local place that can order Houghton, the fella was nice to talk to and checked on pricing for 5gal shipped to his place.
$195 for the Houghto-Quench K. I checked McMaster-Carr 11 sec. on their website, $82 dollars to my door.

He's in NorthEast Arkansas, Let me know if you want his info.

Leatherface
10-26-2010, 05:30 PM
Mr Keith,
I am gonna try and and aquire some thats local

if I cant I will holla at ya..thanks a bunch!!

jkf96a
11-01-2010, 02:54 PM
Leatherface,

I found a local place that can order Houghton, the fella was nice to talk to and checked on pricing for 5gal shipped to his place.
$195 for the Houghto-Quench K. I checked McMaster-Carr 11 sec. on their website, $82 dollars to my door.

He's in NorthEast Arkansas, Let me know if you want his info.

I called Houghton direct, and they quoted me $27.84 per gallon on a 5 gallon pail of the Quench K, and said shipping would be 40-50 dollars.

Leatherface
11-01-2010, 04:56 PM
I called Houghton direct, and they quoted me $27.84 per gallon on a 5 gallon pail of the Quench K, and said shipping would be 40-50 dollars.

that is about what the going rate is I guess

grrrrrrr poverty!

Troop
11-01-2010, 06:04 PM
How are we doing with the McMaster-Carr 11 second oil?
- Thanks

scherar
11-01-2010, 06:49 PM
I just received two gallons of the McMaster 11 sec and did a couple of tests tonight. I have been having problems with getting 1095 hard, so I kind of abandoned it (I pretty much use O-1). The only problem is that is what I use in my damascus (1095 and 15N20). I recently bought a hardness tester so I can experiment a little now. I was kind of skeptical because just last night I read the whole "quench wars" post and the results were bothersome. They sounded like the results I was getting with my current quenchants. I had just recently tried canola oil, atf, Texaco Type A and water. Only the water did all right in that little experiment.
My test was as follows. I HT'd all pieces like I do my O-1. 1500 deg (kiln), soak for 8-10 minutes, and then quench (I am sure someone will disagree with soaking, but anyway...). The oil was heated to 120F.
The piece of 1095 came out in the neighborhood of 57-61. The tests were taken in a variety of spots.
The two pieces of my damascus came out in near the same range. (one piece didn't harden as well though, and I am not sure why)
I also threw a piece of O-1 in there just to see what would happen. It came out in the low 60's. I have gotten the best results with canola oil on my O-1. I tried the Texaco Type A and they were in the mid to high 50's. I usually get low to mid 60's with the canola oil. (I already know about the pearlite and all that. I also know it is not a commercial quencant. It is made to fry with. It's just what I got).
Maybe this will help out with buying quenchants for steel like 1095. The guy I ordered it from was pleasant and it was here in just a couple days. Shipping to CO was a little less than $9. I would have rather ordered Parks 50, but we have all read the posts!

redbug270
11-02-2010, 08:31 AM
Im really new to this and on a shoe string budget but was wondering if peanut oil would work? Im working with 1095 right now. Have gallons of the stuff from all the fried turkeys.

Leatherface
11-02-2010, 10:11 AM
Im really new to this and on a shoe string budget but was wondering if peanut oil would work? Im working with 1095 right now. Have gallons of the stuff from all the fried turkeys.


Redbug,..1095 wouldn't be a great choice for peanut oil, if u want to getthe most out of the steel...1084 from Aldo would be better imho...

Seth Howard
11-04-2010, 08:47 AM
Scherar,

Thanks for posting your results. A question if I may, what kind of agitation did you use with the blades in the quench oil?

Another question because I am looking for one, what kind of hardness tester did you get and from where?


Seth

jkf96a
11-04-2010, 12:07 PM
As far as agitation, go spine to edge or tip to butt, but never side to side. Anything where the flow is even on both sides of the knife is good. Anything where the flow of oil is greater on one side than the other will lend itself to warping your blade.

Another question... we've been quoting what appear to be GM Quenchometer ratings of "9 seconds" "11 seconds" etc. I assume that this notation comes from a standardised set of procedures regarding oil temperature, agitation, etc, in addition to a standard size and temperature of the probe. I'd assume that the standardized ratings are only useful for comparing oils relative to each other. The question is this: An oil rated at "11 seconds" is noted to be "too slow" for 1095, for example. Is the oil "too slow" under the GM test conditions, or is it too slow under typical knifemaking conditions such as 125 degree oil and tip to butt agitation? Or, has actual knife-making testing shown that "11 second" oils are too slow for 1095 under knifemaking conditions?

scherar
11-04-2010, 01:05 PM
I agitated like described by Fry, "slicing" the oil after submersing the blade. It is important to plunge the knife point first, as vertical as possible. It is easy to get some warpage on smaller width/thin blades if you get too carried away trying to get it into the oil. When slicing the oil, keep the same "vertical" idea in mind.
The tester was purchased from Grizzly Tools. They only carry one. I think I paid $900 with shipping. I ordered it in July and got it in October. I was just about to cancel my order when I finally got a call from the delivery company. Grizzly constantly gave me projected receiving dates, but they never were accurate. It is an import model, so I don't know how great it is, but that is the story. I get varied readings (probably +/- 2 points), but I have never used a Wilson or such to be able to compare it to. I was more apt to get a portable tester, but recommendations were for the bench top. It is bulky and heavy.

Fry, from what I have read on forums, McMaster 11 sec. isn't the ultimate choice for 1095, but when I went to order Parks 50 from a site, they were out of stock with no expected time of arrival. Also, and I guess this is not a good excuse, but the 11 sec was much cheaper. Overall, it is night and day from the other two quenchants I had used before.

D. Crawford
11-08-2010, 05:25 PM
How are we doing with the McMaster-Carr 11 second oil?
- Thanks

OK guys,I got the 3 thicknesses of 1095 HT'd with the 11 sec oil and sent to L McAlpine today. The file test seemed to
go well. I look forward to the Rockwell results.

David

Troop
11-09-2010, 04:23 AM
OK guys,I got the 3 thicknesses of 1095 HT'd with the 11 sec oil and sent to L McAlpine today. The file test seemed to
go well. I look forward to the Rockwell results.

David

Great, David...thank you. I hate being held hostage by Parks or Houghton.
- Mitch

jkf96a
11-09-2010, 01:39 PM
I was able to obtain 5 gallons of Duratherm G, a 10 second oil that is re-branded Gulf/Texaco/Chevron Superquench 70. Cost me $47 for the 5 gallons, plus freight. Had it on my front step in two days Fed Ex. Company called Maxim Oil out of Dallas, TX. They knew what I was asking for, had some on hand, and gave me no hassles about quantity. They said that they could formulate a 7/8 second oil from an "old recipe" as well.

I just got an order of 1080 in, and have a couple of file knives in the works as well. Will try them out on the new oil and let you guys know how it works, and how it compares to the vet grade mineral oil I've been using previously.

L. McAlpine
11-12-2010, 05:54 PM
OK guys,I got the 3 thicknesses of 1095 HT'd with the 11 sec oil and sent to L McAlpine today. The file test seemed to
go well. I look forward to the Rockwell results.

David

I just recieved the 1095 pieces from David and have done the tests on them. The first thing I did was to hand sand them(that way I wouldn't creat any heat) to 800 on both sides. then I ran some tests on my test plate 7 times to make sure everthing was seated and working properly on my machine. The last two tests on the test block read exactly what the block was rated for. I then marked each piece at 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", & 1" from the bottom and tested
each piece at those marks. when I tested each mark I tried to be very close on the time I took with the preliminary test fource and the main test fource. I believe the results are pretty accurate. I'm going to try 16939putting a picture here
and hope you can see what I did.
Just in case you can't read the HRC results off the picture here they are from left to right and bottom up. 3/16 1095 plate =65.5,66.3,66,& 65.6. 5/32" 1095 plate=65.7,65.7/65.3, & 65.8. 1/8" 1095 plate=
65.3,66.5,66.5, & 66.6. Also on my machine I'm reading a dial indicator and so the tenths of a point are close guesses.
It looks to me like you got some pretty good results David.

john smith
11-12-2010, 09:13 PM
I was able to obtain 5 gallons of Duratherm G, a 10 second oil that is re-branded Gulf/Texaco/Chevron Superquench 70. Cost me $47 for the 5 gallons, plus freight. Had it on my front step in two days Fed Ex. Company called Maxim Oil out of Dallas, TX. They knew what I was asking for, had some on hand, and gave me no hassles about quantity. They said that they could formulate a 7/8 second oil from an "old recipe" as well.

I just got an order of 1080 in, and have a couple of file knives in the works as well. Will try them out on the new oil and let you guys know how it works, and how it compares to the vet grade mineral oil I've been using previously.

Jason do you have the name of a contact person at Maxim oil co. And did he give you any further information on the old 7-8 sec recipe.
The main steel I have switched to is 1080. Thanks for any info you can give us. It sounds like a good quench at a good price. for the 10 sec oil,
just would like to consider all options. John

Troop
11-14-2010, 09:26 AM
Kevin, what do you make of the results of the Mc Master Carr oil?

Thanks,
Mitch

Troop
11-14-2010, 09:53 AM
Larry, Thank you for testing them out and posting the results. The results are encouraging.

- Mitch

Leatherface
11-14-2010, 01:37 PM
Jason do you have the name of a contact person at Maxim oil co. And did he give you any further information on the old 7-8 sec recipe.
The main steel I have switched to is 1080. Thanks for any info you can give us. It sounds like a good quench at a good price. for the 10 sec oil,
just would like to consider all options. John

yea that is what I am wondering....

Troop
11-14-2010, 01:46 PM
yea that is what I am wondering....

Yeah, me too. I'd rather have a 7-8 sec. oil that works.

Leatherface
11-14-2010, 01:59 PM
Yeah, me too. I'd rather have a 7-8 sec. oil that works.

agreed bro...kinda annoyed that Houghton isnt representing

D. Crawford
11-14-2010, 03:31 PM
Larry, Thank you for testing them out and posting the results. The results are encouraging.

- Mitch

Mitch, I agree with you that these results are really encouraging and beyond what I expected when I sent Larry the samples. I know we've seen tests previously of the McMaster-Carr 11 second oil that gave less than desirable results on 1095 so let me share with any who are interested what steps I followed to get these pieces to the rockwell hardness of 65-66.

I HT from my propane forge which has no temp control. I initially used a color chart which I will include below. I HT in a relatively dark area in order to get an accurate read on the color. I also make sure to avoid any hotspots in the forge. If my edges are very thin before HT then I'll heat the forge up before hand then turn the burner down to an idle before placing the blade inside. What I'm going for is ~1550 to 1600 degrees right out of the forge. Essentially I'm looking to get just past the point of any shadows in the steel. Placing a firebrick in the forge will give a nice flat surface to use in avoiding warpage and also seems to help in getting a nice even heat.
Once past any shadows in the steel I do a "practice" move to the quench tank. The quench tank should be right there next to you. I don't actually quench the blade but am looking to make sure that my blade is going to be free of shadows when it hits the quenchant.
Back in the forge just long enough to get back to proper heat and then tip first into the quench. Let me say here that I did not heat the McMaster Carr 11 second oil for this quench. I quenched at room temp on a 72 degree day. Once in the quench I did a slow cutting motion from the 12 to the 6 position. 10 seconds in the oil then into my water bucket down to room temp. Once cool I did the file test. Interesting to me was that the file did bite just bit after one quench so I immediately retreated each piece a second time and got a really impressive file test. Maybe we can get Kevin C to offer a thought on this.

If I left anything out or if you guys have any questions let me know.
Big thanks again to Larry for a very well performed and presented rc test.

David

Steel Temps by Color

16969

L. McAlpine
11-14-2010, 04:36 PM
Your welcome. I recieve so much from this and other forums that it's a privilege to be able to contribute in some way. if I can ever help out again I'll do my best to do what I can.
Larry

Troop
11-15-2010, 09:11 AM
David, let me get this straight. You placed the samples in the McMaster-Carr oil for 10 secs., then water quenched after that?

Thanks,
Mitch

jkf96a
11-15-2010, 01:40 PM
Jason do you have the name of a contact person at Maxim oil co. And did he give you any further information on the old 7-8 sec recipe.
John

Had to call them back... got my oil two days after I ordered, but still hadn't been charged @ the bank. While I had them on the phone, I got the name of the tech guy.

Lee Neves
Maxim Oil
817-654-4456

FYI, total on the 5 gallons of 10 second oil was $73.32 shipped.

scherar
11-15-2010, 05:12 PM
David,
I have been going through this thread to see your HT recipe that you did on the test pieces but I can not find it. Could you direct me to the right place or summarize it. I did some tests a little while back with some McMaster 11 sec (posted on this thread), but my test pieces didn't get quite as hard as yours. Just wanting to see what was different.

Thanks

D. Crawford
11-15-2010, 07:43 PM
David, let me get this straight. You placed the samples in the McMaster-Carr oil for 10 secs., then water quenched after that?

Thanks,
Mitch

That is correct.

D. Crawford
11-15-2010, 07:49 PM
David,
I have been going through this thread to see your HT recipe that you did on the test pieces but I can not find it. Could you direct me to the right place or summarize it. I did some tests a little while back with some McMaster 11 sec (posted on this thread), but my test pieces didn't get quite as hard as yours. Just wanting to see what was different.

Thanks

Hi Scherar, check out post #49. It has a color chart at the bottom. Let me know if you have any questions after you read it.

David

scherar
11-15-2010, 08:01 PM
David,
I have an evenheat oven, and usually heat to 1500, so I no longer go off colors like I did when I was using the oxy-acet torch method. After reading that post, is that your method of treating 1095? Are you saying that you think a double or triple quench is necessary? I was getting 58-61 when quenching @ 1500 in 11sec heated to 120 deg. Do you think approx 70 deg is a better place for the oil?

D. Crawford
11-15-2010, 08:38 PM
David,
I have an evenheat oven, and usually heat to 1500, so I no longer go off colors like I did when I was using the oxy-acet torch method. After reading that post, is that your method of treating 1095? Are you saying that you think a double or triple quench is necessary? I was getting 58-61 when quenching @ 1500 in 11sec heated to 120 deg. Do you think approx 70 deg is a better place for the oil?

Yes I use my forge as my heat source so I go by color and in daylight I'll use the magnet to insure I'm past critical temp. Before the test I would have been suspect of the validity of double or triple quenches but the proof is in the pudding for me now. After one quench the file was giving me the impression of a mid to high 50's result with lots of variation on each piece. I knew I would find this unacceptable so I immediately HT'd again and got a very obvious improvement when I skated the file. The fact that all three samples with twelve total rc tests done came in within a one point range is pretty telling I think. When I read previous test results I thought that the test temps were just a bit too low, and that not heating the McMaster oil would add some "shock" to the process. When I received the oil I saw no directions that said the oil was intended to be heated for use. I was conscious of trying to avoid grain growth so I avoided overheating or long soaks. I suggest you bump your oven temp up to 1575-1600, quench as fast as you possibly can with room temp 11 sec oil, and then do the file test. If you get any bite at all from the file, then do your double quench. I suspect your results will be very similar to mine.

David

busted knuckles
11-16-2010, 10:25 AM
I spoke to lee at Maxim oil. He's making his recipe 7-8 sec oil and he's getting a drum of Parks #50. During our conversation I think I convinced him that there's a big hole in the fast quench oil market that needs to be filled. here's what he says.

"Mr. Barton;



Thank you for your interest in Maxim’s quench media. I am formulating a new oil and it is almost from scratch as basestocks have changed so much since we last made the material. I expect to have all of the raw materials for the new oil by Nov. 23rd. It is taking longer than I thought as the low viscosity paraffinic oils has changed somewhat. I expect the 7-8 second quench oil to be priced around $12.00 per gallon in 5 gallon pails plus freight from DFW. Flashpoint will be
~ 285F, GM quench speed will be within 7-8.8 range; and the temperature work range will be 50-120F.



I have included some info on the PQ 90 polymer as it may be an alternative to oils. I believe a good starting point for the polymer will be 10-15% polymer in water at approx. 90- 110F. Some other polymers available may be more specific to your application but PQ 90 works over such a wide range… I would start with PQ90.



We also have a brine replacement for water quench that can be used at 4-5 oz.s per gallon, is non corrosive and may give you a superior quench over just salt or caustic. ( PowderQuench, MSDS attached) Note: Powder-Quench is a DOT regulated Oxidizer as it contains Sodium Nitrite.



I am a Park Distributor in Texas. # 50 Quench oil is available in drums and pails. It is about 16.00 per gallon plus freight. I can bring a drum in on our next truck if you decide to go with the actual #50. I would pail-up a drum’s worth and make it available to you.



Thank you for the opportunity to earn your business. If I can be of at further service, please let me know."



there it is, the best price on Parks #50 I've found. I'll be buying some of his recipe too. someone who makes the effort he is deserves our business.
I'll be trying the maxim, Parks and the PQ 90 polymer side by side when I get them all. I'll report here about the results. remember, the results will be unique to me and my techniques, your results may be different than mine.
Thank you to the gentleman who recommended Maxim oil, Lee Neves Is a good man to work with and the first accommodating oilman I've met. I recommend we all give him our business.

john smith
11-16-2010, 01:32 PM
I also talked to Lee at Maxim oil yesterday (email)
He told me the same thing about making their 7-8 sec quench
He is willing to work with us small knifemakers and give us a good product at
a good price. John

jkf96a
11-16-2010, 02:39 PM
Sweet, the floodgates are open :) Could we once again see the return of readily available quench oil?

Rudy Joly
11-16-2010, 03:03 PM
busted knuckles,
That's very encouraging news. I'll be looking for your results on the polymer 90. I've been wondering about the stuff for quite a while.

Rudy

busted knuckles
11-16-2010, 05:26 PM
Yea Rudy, lee said that he thinks it may be the best quench for 1095. He seems to know his stuff about quenching. the only caution he gave me about the PQ 90 was that it needs to be agitated well during the quench, like a pump in the tank or a little propeller. I'll have to work something out that doesn't cause uneven cooling. Any Ideas guys, I'm a K.I.S.S kind of guy so no Rube Goldberg contraptions for me.

Rudy Joly
11-16-2010, 06:06 PM
Busted,
I've been told several times that agitation is required for the polymers. The best suggestion was for a submersible pump that they use in backyard fish ponds. They come in different sizes and you could thread the electrical cord through pipe so there's no mishaps with a hot blank hitting it. The only place I've seen them is at Harbor Freight so take that with a grain of salt. I may have to try this out just to satisfy my curiousity sometime....but I'm still waiting for your test.

Rudy

Dan Pierson
11-16-2010, 06:32 PM
The other downside I've heard about polymers is that they require constant maintenance, checking of solution concentrations, etc. I've also heard that Don Fogg was doing some testing with them so you might ask him for more direct info.

Rudy Joly
11-16-2010, 06:45 PM
Dan,
That's where I first got intrigued by the polymer bug (Don's site). I've always liked the idea of being able to formulate your own custom blend for any particular steel. Polymers give you a wide range of speeds for quenching depending on the mix ratio. Constant maintainance and testing would be an issue for the little guy though. I'm still anxious to find out more.

Rudy

busted knuckles
11-16-2010, 09:19 PM
A pump is probably the simplest solution. as for the poly maintenance, Lee says to just replace your quench once a year but I've heard elsewhere that it's more complicated. If everything boils off at the same rate then there's no change in the concentration and no need to test or maintain the concentration. lot's to learn. being a bladesmith is certainly not static or boring, is it?
and I'm still not sure what the stuff costs. I told him I'd start with the poly since the oil's not available yet but he hasn't got back to me.

Mike Krall
11-20-2010, 10:41 PM
Kelly Cupples was mentioned as a seller of Park #50 and Park AAA... If you e-mail Kelly at... octihunter@charter.net ...and ask for a current price list, he will e-mail one to you.

A possible way to get Houghton Oils easier than having the minimum quantity of 5 gal. shipped from eastern Pennsylvania (only place it comes from in that quantity, to my knowledge) is contacting Scott McKenzie and asking him where the nearest Houghton distributor is. Scott is Houghton's metallurgist and quench oil specialist and he posts in BS forum's metallurgy sub-forum. Once you know where the nearest Houghton Oil is, calling the distributor and finding out who they distribute the type of oil you want to may get you a contact for smaller than 5 gallon amounts.

At the time I bought 5 gallons each of Houghto-quench "K" and Houghto-quench "G", cost and shipping to west central Wyoming from eastern PA was a little over $100 per... something like $220 total. At the time it was far and away the largest amount of lump-sum money I had into making knives. I rationalized it by knowing, if I took good care of the oil (didn't flash it, didn't overheat it, didn't let water or dust get into it, filtered it occasionally) that there was nearly no way I was ever going to need any more... that I likely could leave it to someone in my will and maybe they could do the same. Is that a stretch? I don't know for sure... maybe... maybe not. How many blades will 2.5 gallons quench before it needs to be replaced with the other 2.5 gallons still in the pail? Professional heat-treaters run huge (relative) quantities of steel into the same oil before replacement and, if I've learned correctly, often replace their quench oil not because it has lost it's properties but because it is leaving small amounts of deposits on the pieces that costs relatively more money to remove. That's a thing that is not much of a problem in custom knife making.

Mike

PS... Howard Clark posts on BS forum and has put up a lot of his personal experience with polymer quench oils over time.

BossDog
07-28-2011, 06:54 AM
If some one has the main contact info Parks or Houghton I will see about bringing some in bulk and reselling it in 5's an 1 gallons. Oil is gawdawful messy to repackage and ship and i have avoided for that reason but it shouldn't be this hard to get either.

Mike Krall
07-28-2011, 08:38 AM
Tracy,

If you holler at Kevin Cashen, he is likely going to be able to put you into easy contact with the people you should talk with.

In some forum-yap I picked up on another quench oil company who sounded like they would be happy to work with knife makers. I think Kevin may be working with them on appropriate quenchants and/or ???

Mike

BossDog
07-28-2011, 08:44 AM
I have PMd Kevin. I talked to Lee Nevse this morning. Great guy and I ordered some dt-48 and parks 50 for our hammer in next week. He wanted to stress the importance of oil agitation to get consistent results. Now I need to find a source for small pumps. It never ends....

Mike Krall
07-28-2011, 09:00 AM
I'm not an expert, Tracy, but I've gotten from Kevin Cashen and "Mete" that simply moving a blade in the quench constitutes agitation... end to end movement... never side to side.

"Mete" discussed a whirlpool type "agitator" somewhere in knife-forum land. Seemed as simple a system as others I've heard discussed... stick blade, edge on, into the outside of the whirl.

Mike

PS -- Who's Lee Nevse?

ARCustomKnives
07-28-2011, 05:32 PM
If some one has the main contact info Parks or Houghton I will see about bringing some in bulk and reselling it in 5's an 1 gallons. Oil is gawdawful messy to repackage and ship and i have avoided for that reason but it shouldn't be this hard to get either.

You get my vote....

Maybe at least some Parks 50 and AAA.

ARCustomKnives
07-28-2011, 05:37 PM
I'm not an expert, Tracy, but I've gotten from Kevin Cashen and "Mete" that simply moving a blade in the quench constitutes agitation... end to end movement... never side to side.

"Mete" discussed a whirlpool type "agitator" somewhere in knife-forum land. Seemed as simple a system as others I've heard discussed... stick blade, edge on, into the outside of the whirl.

Mike

PS -- Who's Lee Nevse?

I've always thought the same thing Mike. I could very well be wrong though.

BTW, Lee NEVES is the owner of Maxim Oil Co. They've been know to distribute Parks 50 in 5 gallon buckets (I bought my supply from them) and have also developed a number of their own quenchants as well, including a fast quench that I understand to be nearly as good as Parks 50.

Another note, they've probably got the best prices I've seen anywhere (though distributors are about as rare as hen's teeth anyway) on Parks 50.

BossDog
07-28-2011, 07:27 PM
Talking to Lee today, he is about breaking even on selling in5 gallon buckets shipping via Fedex. He says to ask for Carla when calling in to order.

Mike Krall
07-28-2011, 10:29 PM
Thank you for that, Andrew...

When I bought 5 gal. each of Houghto-quench "K" and "G", it was because I couldn't get Parks #50 and AAA. I learned later on they are actually better quench oils that will do the same job, and at the time I bought, cheaper too. I'd love to have messed with Houghton's Bio-quench 700 but I've heard it is very expensive.

Mike

BossDog
08-15-2011, 02:51 PM
I am still working this. I commit to having a slow and fast oil in 5 gallons available as soon as we can get some quotes on 50gallon drums, arrange shipping and repacking supplies and handing equipment. Not sure of the brand yet. Probably Houghton, maybe Parks, maybe both. I do have some oil coming from Maxim oil, their Texaco A reformulation and will list that when it comes in. If I can find suitable shipping containers, I will have oil in one gallon lots also. That will take some time and they will add a bit of expense. The ups and Fedex people will get real grumpy if a package breaks open.

Troop
09-22-2011, 04:48 PM
Tracy, Anything happening yet with getting the fast oil?
- Thank you.

DonL
09-24-2011, 06:17 AM
I'd be interested in some of that oil also. Been trying to find some of the Houghton but will settle for whatever I can get.

BTW, if you've ever worked on a UPS or FedEx dock, you'll understand why packages "come open". Never, ever put "Fragile" on a package....it's just asking for it!

grant
09-24-2011, 08:05 PM
I would love some real quench oil, too. It's getting old juggling keeping my quench oil at the right heat and heating up my blade with my ghetto setup.

sethshaun
09-24-2011, 10:03 PM
I will definitely order 5 gallons of fast oil as soon as you can get it.
- Thank you

franklin
09-25-2011, 06:51 PM
the dt 48 seems to work really well, when i was at tracys i bought some dont now what the rock is but i no longer need to quench 2 times it gets just has hard with a soak at 8 min then quench. so tracy if you carry ill buy.

ArtinNC
09-26-2011, 03:11 PM
I'd take % gals . If it is good enough for "Franklin " its good enough for me. Hee hee

Really I'd need some, and will take 5 gals. That is dt48 Right??

Art
arthursummers88@hotmail.com

franklin
09-27-2011, 06:26 PM
yep its a fast quench. theres a couple threads on it art and test results. at a good price to if i might add.

Troop
09-28-2011, 06:11 AM
Hmmmm......Tracy's being awful quiet.

theWeatherman
06-01-2012, 10:39 PM
After reading through this, what is the consensus about fast quench oils. Besides Parks 50, what are good options for 1095?

Mike Krall
06-03-2012, 10:14 AM
After reading through this, what is the consensus about fast quench oils. Besides Parks 50, what are good options for 1095?

One person consensus... =]

Not to act smart (it's not like me...), there are a lot of quench oils fast enough to fully harden thin sections of high carbon steels like 1070 through W1/W2. Every one of them will work well... Houghto-quench "G" (medium-fast) will fully quench 1/4" sections) as long as the oil temp. is "right" and a person isn't trying to push the steel's quenching temp. to minimum (information I got directly from Houghton).

Conoco
Zurn Oil
Fuchs
Huppert Industries
Park
Houghton
Others

Outfits re-branding quench oils... McMaster Carr, for one... and there are others... Brownell's "Tough Quench" is Houghto-quench "G"

Distributors of manufacturer's stuff... http://www.acculube.com/quench-oils.html (a midwest distributor of some Houghton products)

It would be really nice if there was easy access to fast and medium-fast quench oils. There simply isn't. The oil is going to cost real money and the shipping is going to be onerous, not to mention the initial "finding"... which for me, took both web searching and phone calling.

Early on in this thread Kevin lamented the costs.. they have changed a lot. I'm still thinking it's well worth paying for as opposed to going with canola oil, simply based on longevity. Like, how many times am I going to have to buy 2 - 3 gallons of canola oil because it rapidly oxidizes (relative to commercial quenchants)? http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/430/quench-oils

So you know, by and large, I've found it easy to have discussions with quench oil manufacturers tech. folks... even Park Metallurgical. About all of them were more than willing to tell me if/what oils they had were appropriate for 1070 through W1/W2... or O1, L6, etc. Person just needs to know a little about what to tell them... like: steel, section thickness, fully hardened... maybe some others I'm not having come to mind, but some one here is likely to point those out.

Mike

twgray
06-04-2012, 05:58 PM
I hope this thread is being kept alive as I hope to be making chef's knives from 01 soon, and would like to know what type of oil brings out the optimum from this steel.

Mike Krall
06-04-2012, 08:28 PM
Medium, TW...

Medium is like Houghto-quench "G" and Parks AAA.

It may be that McMaster-Carr's "11 second" oil is a Houghton oil nearly identical to "G". Seems I heard that but the memory of what I heard is too vague to swear to.

Kevin, do you recall Scott McKenzie saying that?

Mike

twgray
06-05-2012, 10:17 AM
After sending an e-mail to Acculube last night, I received a reply today from Mark Zimmer, territory manager, who suggested Parks AAA for 0-1. The cost for 5 gallons is $139.58. Shipping is roughly based on 5 gallons weighing approximately 50 lbs. should you decide to get an estimate prior to buying. His e-mail address is MZimmer@acculube.com, and he appears to be helpful. I'm calling some local jobbers today to see if there is any way to get it from them locally. Hope this helps.

Mike Krall
06-05-2012, 07:45 PM
After sending an e-mail to Acculube last night, I received a reply today from Mark Zimmer, territory manager, who suggested Parks AAA for 0-1.

TW,

I didn't realize Acculube distributed Park Metallurgy oils. Did Mark Zimmer give you a list of other Park Oils Acculube has available?

I dug back into my saved links for info on Houghton quench oils... this link from SFI http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?53085-Name-your-poison-commercial-quenchants./page2&highlight=quenching+oils See top of page two... Post #41... Scott Mckenzie. Scott is Houghton's metallurgist and quench oil specialist. Is (maybe, was) ASM chairman of quench board, poster on SFI and BS forums in metallurgy sub-forums... posting under name on SFI and as "kb0fhp" on BS (that's a zero, not an "O").

Some where, and I can't find it... likely SFI, though... Scott said Houghto-quench "G" will fully harden (through harden) 1/4" 1070 through W1/W2. A person has to have the oil at the right temp and needs to austenitize at the right temp... both pieces of data are very available directly from Houghton. That should serve for most knives and the advantage gained over fast oils (Houghto-quench "K" or Park #50) is less distortion.

I can tell you personally that an interrupted quench in the 3 to 5 second range with 1450F blade and 122F oil ("G") will not through harden 1/4" 1086 (.90 Mg ). (Top 1/3 of the blade had nice, but unwanted, "natural hamon".), but it produces no hamon near the top edge of the same thickness blade if left in the oil a more normal length of time. I also use "G" for both L6 and O1.

Mike

Edit: Should have noted the AccuLube list shows Houghto-quench 3440 that Scott Mckenzie says is the same as Houghto-quench "K" (in the SFI quench oil thread link).

Mike Krall
06-05-2012, 09:09 PM
I just got a reply to a question I asked Scott McKenzie of Houghton International. Scott verified my memory, that McMaster-Carr "11 second" quench oil is very, very much like Houghto-quench "G" / Houghto-quench 3430... without saying that is exactly what it is.

My belief is, if I wanted Houghto-quench "G", I could buy McMaster-Carr's "11 second" quench oil and have it... that Scott is constrained from saying if it is or isn't... http://www.mcmaster.com/#quenching-oil/=hupszy It looks like the 5 gallon quantity ships out of New Jersey... don't know where the 1 gallon amount ships from... person could ask.

And a person could holler at Houghton and get data sheets on "G" to work from... ask questions about any other stuff, etc.

Mike

Mike Krall
06-06-2012, 01:07 PM
And I just got a UPS-ground shipping quote from McMaster-Carr on 5gal. of "11 second" oil from their warehouse in New Jersey to Lander, Wyo. 82520 (that's west-central Wyoming... no way not over 2000mi.)... $25

Mike