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bootstrap
08-29-2010, 03:26 AM
Hey guys, I was curious as what oils you use during you quench and why?

I am about to buy myself a nice little sugar creek kiln, and I want to get all my ducks in a row before I get started.

Thanks

Will:steve:

Wayne Coe
08-29-2010, 04:21 AM
I like peanut oil because it has a higher flash point than other vegetable oils. It is readily available and cheap because my son is throwing it away after he frys a turkey and I get about 5 gallons a year. Motor oils and transmission fluid have cancer causing smoke and are not good for you to handle. Now I don't know how much of that smoke you have to breathe or how much oil has to be absorbed into your skin to cause problems.

The quench oils may be better and more rate specific but are also expensive. I've never used them.

Besides when using peanut oil or canola oil the shop smells like French Fries!
:s12137:

LRB
08-29-2010, 05:43 AM
The oil needs to be matched to the steel. Different steels require different speeds of cooling, and different oils are formulated to meet these requirements. Most quench oils will cover more than just one particular steel, but not necessarily more than one type. You need to decide on a steel type that you want to use, then go from there.

murphda2
08-29-2010, 06:29 AM
Hopefully Kevin will chime in and give you some guidance here. There was a discussion going on over on the ABS Forum about quenchants and I believe it was Kevin who mentioned a quench oil that was very similar in properties to Parks 50 but was easier to obtain and priced more reasonably.

Doug Lester
08-29-2010, 10:30 AM
I use peanut oil, largely for reasons already mentioned. It has a high flash point, which comes in handy for martempering and ausquenching. Of the oils with a high flash point it is the most available and it's reasonably priced and those oils with a higher flash point aren't significantly higher. The biggest deciding factor is, for the applications and steels that I use it for, it works. Now if I went for some high carbon 10XX series of steels I might invest on some supper fast commercial oil quenchant or just go back to using brine.

Doug Lester

bootstrap
08-29-2010, 08:31 PM
Thanks for chiming in guys. I am pretty sure I will be starting with O-1 because with everything I have read saying its the best beginner steel.

silver_pilate
08-29-2010, 08:42 PM
I use Parks#50 for my fast oil and AAA for a medium speed oil. Houghton has several oils that are equivalent. Brownell's Tough Quench is actually repackaged Houghton type G oil and is a medium speed oil, slightly faster than AAA from what I've heard. Houghton also has a type K that is a fast oil similar to Parks#50.

--nathan

UncleBillyKnives
08-29-2010, 08:52 PM
i use used motor oil heated to about 150F. the smoke is not that bad and i have had good luck with it.

UncleBilly

silver_pilate
08-29-2010, 08:56 PM
If you decide to go with O1 for your first steel, realize that O1 likes a good soak at temp prior to quenching. I soak O1 for 20 minutes once it's reached critical temperature. O1 will harden well in many oils. I used canola for a whole before stepping up to AAA. Brownell's Tough Quench would likely also be a good choice.

The thing about formulated oils vs. veggie oils and motor/tranny oils is consistency. With a brand new tank full of canola, things will work great. With the first quench, you begin to break down the oil and change it's properties. Over time, your oil starts behaving just a little differently. Formulated oils are designed to last through repeated quenches and are designed to be consistent through multiple quenches.

Another thing about formulated oils is that they are designed to cool at different speeds at different points during the quench. It's just hard to beat the performance and consistency of a quality formulated oil when compared to veggie oils and motor oils.

--nathan

LRB
08-30-2010, 05:00 AM
I use 01 almost exclusively and agree with silver_pilate, but would add that you will need some form of decarb protection. I have been useing the paint on type from Brownell's with good success for over a year now. A 20 minute soak at 1475 to 1485, then quench in AAA warmed to 125 to 130 seems to work very well. Since you have invested in an oven, you might just as well invest in a good and proper oil, and get the best return for your money.

Kevin R. Cashen
08-30-2010, 08:04 AM
I have been away demonstrating at the ABS hammer in in Troy Ohio, so I wasn't able to include input until today. I myself use Heatbath/Park Metallurgical oils for any work that I don't just run through the salt baths. If I were doing 5160, 52100, O1, L6, 8670M and other oil hardening steels I would use Parks AAA, it is a very nice and well designed medium speed quenching oil. I don't use AAA very often because any steel that will quench well in it will also quench just fine in low temp salts, which is certainly my preference. If I have to do quenching of 1075, 1080, 1084, 1095, W2, W1 or other rather shallow hardening steels I use Parks #50 as a medium speed oil just will not get them entire over the top for full hardness. As mentioned any particular steel really needs to be matched to an appropriate speed quenchant, all you want is maximum martensite conversion, beyond this only get you unnecessary stress on the blade that you will have to deal with or experience distortion or even cracking; speed is never the single defining factor of a good quenchant.

Now that I have mentioned the Heatbath/Parks products that I am familiar with I need to deliver the bad news- Heatbath/Parks won’t sell it to you. That company only deals with an exclusive client list that is limited to serious industry and very large scale operations only. Even if they would sell it to knifemakers you would be buying it in 55 gallon drums. You can get it on the secondary market but the cost of a 5 gallon bucket is going for prices that are too rich for my tastes.

Now let me tell you about the largest and oldest quench oil manufacturer of them all- Houghton International (http://www.houghtonintl.com/) and the good news is that they like your business just as much as anybody else’s, and make some of the finest quenchant to boot! I would use Houghton products, and have set up friends in industry with them, if I wasn’t already completely set up with Parks oils. If you visit their website they also have some fantastic informative articles about heat treating as well. On the recommendation of a friend who is very much involved in the technical end of R&D at Houghton I would suggest Houghto-Quench 3440 for when you want to approach water quenching speeds. My friend assures me that it is just about the fastest oil you can get. Houghto-Quench 3430 is less severe and good for a wide range of alloys in blade sizes.

I have been marquenching for over 15 years and feel obligated to add a little note for the sake of public safety. Products designed to properly do martempering/marquenching are carefully engineered to handle those temps and still extract heat without becoming incendiary devices capable of death and destruction. Heating an oil to within a degree of its flash point and then adding a 1500F piece of steel to it requires a little planning. Most oils acquire more quench speed from being gently heated up to about 150F but above 200F the thermal extraction abilities start to be harmed by more heat. For these reason I have always been a huge proponent of using products that were engineered to perform that task properly and safely, and Mother Nature never really cared about martempering.

I would also like it noted that my recommendation or criticism of any particular quenchant comes from results based upon the most objective analysis I can provide of the desired properties and internal structure. What a good blade should be is determined by each individual and any attempts by me to qualify or quantify a quenchant based upon such criteria would be like chasing the wind. How one person likes a blade to cut is a feeling, not a fact I can either refute or support, how much martensite vs. pearlite that can be observed within the steel is.

Hazards from hot oil, fire, toxic vapors or smoke resulting from improvised quenchants are also not a matter of opinion and something that makes me feel obligated to say – find your own level of desired performance in both a quenchant and the resulting blade, have fun, but please be safe guys.

bootstrap
08-30-2010, 05:40 PM
Thanks guys for the info. I talked to Sue with sugar creek today, and I will be placing my order tomorrow. I think for the my purposes I will be going for the peanut oil mainly because I can pick it up just about anywhere. I will move up to AAA soon though.

Thanks again,

Will

Jerry Bond
09-01-2010, 09:05 PM
Will, I use canola oil for 0-1 and have had good luck with it. I also use McMaster-Carr 11 sec oil for 1075/80 for hamons. BTW where, in Miss. are you? I live about 8 mi S of Wiggins Ms.
Jerry

murphda2
09-02-2010, 06:44 AM
He's almost a yankee Jerry. :D I can't remember the name of the town he lives in, but it is about an hour+ North of Hattiesburg.

bootstrap
09-02-2010, 05:36 PM
Woe woe! Almost a yankee? Murph that's aimin' below the belt :) hahaha

I live in the Brandon area; its just outside Jackson.

Jerry Bond
09-02-2010, 05:56 PM
Brandon. Is that North of Jackson or South? You know that Jackson is the line.
Anyway It's good to see another homeboy with us Dogs.
Jerry


keep an eye on him Murph

bootstrap
09-02-2010, 06:03 PM
Actual its east haha. Besides I can't be a yankee, I graduated from state in may. Look at that. I went from a Bulldog to a knife dog.

DLBrothers
09-02-2010, 07:53 PM
If you have any veterinarian contacts, get them to buy you some purified light mineral oil- it's better than peanut oil and cleaner. You can mix a little P.oil with it if you want it to smell better :) When I switched from P.oil to M.oil, my 01 blades improved. Get some PBC powder from LeadDog Tracey and have a ball!

Leatherface
09-04-2010, 03:09 PM
Now let me tell you about the largest and oldest quench oil manufacturer of them all- Houghton International (http://www.houghtonintl.com/) and the good news is that they like your business just as much as anybody else’s, and make some of the finest quenchant to boot! I would use Houghton products, and have set up friends in industry with them, if I wasn’t already completely set up with Parks oils. If you visit their website they also have some fantastic informative articles about heat treating as well. On the recommendation of a friend who is very much involved in the technical end of R&D at Houghton I would suggest Houghto-Quench 3440 for when you want to approach water quenching speeds. My friend assures me that it is just about the fastest oil you can get. Houghto-Quench 3430 is less severe and good for a wide range of alloys in blade sizes.

.

wow I am hosed it seems

I use 5160 and 1084

they use different oils

grrrr gonna have to come off the $$$ it seems

DJJ
09-10-2010, 10:29 AM
I have high speed quenching oil from McMaster-Carr,would that be a good choice for 1080? What about 5160,something slower? like canola oil?or would the high speed M-C work well for either of these 2 steels?

Kevin R. Cashen
09-11-2010, 07:21 AM
5160 is very forgiving and doesn't really have enough carbon to create the extreme stresses that lead to problems like you can have with overquenching something like O1.

Leatherface
09-12-2010, 06:56 PM
so you can get away with using the quicker oils for 5160?? WOOHOO

My wallet thanks you!