sword steel 5160 or L6?

strahd71

strahd71

Member
hey guys i've been doing some reading on sword steels for fun and for "functional or battle ready" blades the two steels that come up most often is 5160 and L6.

so for fun i was wondering what you folks thought. of course heat treat and geometry go with out saying, so please keep it some what confined to this very loose and vague scenario

if you were going to put your life on the line and there were two swords that were identical except one was made of 5160 and the other L6 which would you
choose and why if you have an opinion?

thanks for playing

jake
 
strahd71 said:
if you were going to put your life on the line and there were two swords that were identical except one was made of 5160 and the other L6 which would you
choose and why if you have an opinion?
Click to expand...
Either of those steels would make an exceptional sword. I would lean towards the L6, simply because L6 is held to a higher standard by the mills, thus less likely to have problems due to shoddy manufacturing.
 
thanks for the replies guys! i figured L6 would be the first choice and it has been here and on "another" forum. i certainly think 5160 would be fine but seems like the L6 is the
choice

jake
 
I would think L6 would be good for rapiers and other blades that need the flexability. 5160 or 1075 would be my choice for a sword, either long or short.
 
Heat treat is all! With the correct heat treatment either of these steels yield excellent (and pretty much identical) performance. I would pick 5160 because I would use a sword that I had made if my life depended on it. I use 5160H (High hardenability grade- better QC) spring steel that is professionally marquenched by an aerospace heat treater and then do a second stage of tempering to leave the edge quite hard (58-60Rc) but the spine, shoulder and tang springy. Been doing this for about 20 years with excellent results.
 
yeah - if you have the ability to do the bainite heat treat (and the skill) then L6 is it, by far.

If you are relying on your own forge and a tank of oil for heat treat then 5160 may not be that different. Not given the human factors. Whichever one you can get with "certs" to know the real composition would be the one I suggest.

If you can do inserted edge or san mai, then low manganese 1075 for body, w2 for blade, and clay heat treat.



just my thoughts. Don't want to argue or upset anyone.

Kevin
 
Bainite is good for specific purposes- If toughness is the main consideration Bainitic L6 is hard to beat. The ideal for L6 would be a Bainitic body and a martensite edge. This would be the best of both worlds- the toughness of Bainite for the body of the blade, the hardness and wear resistance of a martensitic edge. However Marquenched and differentially tempered 5160H spring steel can come so close to this that there is little practical difference if indeed there is any difference.

Steel types and their qualities are worth discussing... but it can be a trap. Just because a sword is 'Bainitic L6' doesn't mean it is the best possible. Likewise Marquenched 5160. Well heat-treated 1060 will outperform badly heat-treated L6 or 5160 wether it is bainitic or martensitic or whatever. We tend to get hung up on technicalities like these and forget that quality is far more important than materials.

Bearing in mind the posters original specification- that you are going to bet your life on the sword- there are so many other considerations of design and technical detail that the material is almost irrelevant. I would sooner bet my life on a correctly designed sword that uses sub-ideal materials than a badly designed sword made of the 'best stuff on earth.'

After many, many years of studying swords I came to the shocking conclusion that there is no 'one right way' to do things. Japanese sword construction when done properly makes an excellent japanese style sword. A good Japanese-style sword is often Rc60+ at the edge and anywhere from dead-soft to Rc18-30 in the body. It's a relatively thick single edged sword designed to be quite rigid, so if done well this works just fine with the techniques it is designed for. Take a European medieval sword though and the same formula is a recipe for disaster. European medieval swords are for the most part thinner in cross-section, broader, double-edged and are designed to be flexible. They are better off at a 'compromise' uniform temper of around Rc50-52 so they have a balance of edge retention and toughness. (Or they can be differentially tempered but that's a whole 'nuther can of worms...)

To really get this you have to have seen and handled really good antiques or reproductions based on the design principles of those antiques. That however is a subject for a whole 'nuther thread. Or a book.

So- if I had to bet my life on a japanese style sword I would be pretty happy with a Howard Clark Bainitic L6 Katana. Howard 'groks' japanese swords and L6 so I trust him to do it right. If I were betting my life on a european style sword one of my 5160 spring steel swords (or an Angus trim 5160 sword) would be my choice because I trust my own (or Gus Trims) knowledge of medieval swords and 5160.

Something to consider- at Blade show one year I asked 6-7 high-end custom makers what material they thought I should use for high-end stainless kitchen knives. Every single one of them said 'cryo-quenched 440C.' This is (unjustly) a much sneered-at material in the world of knives. "Shouldn't I use (insert modern super-steel) instead?" To a man they shrugged and said words to the effect of "maybe it's better- but it's not enough better that a human will be able to tell the difference in normal use."

In the end quality and the maker's knowledge matter more than splitting hairs over the material.
 
I have one of tinkers swords and beat the snot out of it. it will split deer carcasses in half with a one handed upswing. But didnt come out of shape when a pass through buried the sword into the dirt and thru rocks. Made multiple c shape forms buy bending his blade and it always springs back to tru.
Its all about the heat treat...
Great sword tink.....
 
I have used 5160 H . Most bushhog blades are made from it . The H simply means it will attain an rc of 45 or more no matter how you Ht
. with a good ht and temper it will be much higher . Like I said before its a tough call . both are excellent steels however one of howards bainite L-6 swords are highly desirable and more flexible than 5160 . 5160 is a very forgiving steel when forging and easy to work with . On the other hand Good modified L-6 takes a more complex ht . Not something that is easily accomplished if you dont have a lot of experience . I saw a demo where howards L-6 sword actually cut a japanese katana nearly in two on the edge side . Something I would not attempt with 5160 .
 
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There are upsides and downsides to every steel. I know of one very experienced maker who makes katanas from 1075. From what I have been told, the bainitic L6 swords will bend rather than break, but i have also heard they can take a set. I do believe that they are also a bit thinner than typical. Howard Clark makes his "competion" swords from baintic L6 but his more expensive "presentation" grade sword are made from clayed up 1086M, which could be described as W2's little brother with slightly less carbon. One forumite had Bailey Bradshaw make a cutting katana from W2 so it wouldn't do that very thing.
If you look at the old Japanese blades, that is another matter. Other than a mono steel blade, one with a low carbon core and and harder outer skin the the most SIMPLE method of construction. From what I have read, Masamune swords contain 7 different bars of steel of three different levels of carbon content in one blade. You might be able to make something similar using a combination of say W1 or W2, 1045 and 1018. But then again, guys like Masamune were essentially having to invent the wheel as they couldn't give Aldo a call and have him ship them a big hunk of CPM 3V..:biggrin:
 
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You are correct , Masamune used the soshu kitae which is an unbelieveable lamination . Here is a link to the different constructions they used.
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/laminate.htm They were pretty inventive ! imagine doing all those intricate welds by hand no power hammer. I have done the maru and the kobuse and some suminagashi nothing past that maybe some hon sanmai. soshu construction is highly prized to collectors .I saw a huge Tachi blade he (howard)made not too long ago , dont remember what it was made of , it was simply outstanding .
 
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