Question about folded steel???

Vance C.

Well-Known Member
So the other day I was hanging out with my friend, television, and on the history channel there was an episode of Modern Marvels, on which they were talking about how welded sections of steel are more structurally sound than sections of non-welded steel. If I recall, it was because when heated to welding temperatures, the molecule's electron clouds are moving so rapidly, that they tend to interlace and the molecules would share electron clouds, giving the metal more tensile strength, and it made me start to think...

would that idea transfer over to forge welding? is that why people think folded steel is so strong? (i personally have not had a chance to play with folded steel, I don't know if it is better than regular steel at all) because every time you fold it, more and more iron molecules are bonding together, effectively giving the steel more tensile strength, so it is harder to break and bend?

second- how would heat treating effect this? would heating the metal up to austenizing temperature break the bonds that have been created? or would it effect it at all? just a discussion topic if anyone is interested!
 
You said it Vance,
As far as I know?
The Heat treat process would nullify any of this Cloud bonding you are referring to.

I have seen that program before too and I think there was a additional component to that increase in tensile strength?

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
Maybe?? But I believe pattern welded blades are more for asthetics than anything else in modern knives and to my point I think most knives built and used for JS/MS testing are mono-steel. The ones used for cutting, chopping, bend w/o breaking, etc. that I have seen are almost always mono. This says a lot to me.

That said, a well made "damascus" pattern welded blade just looks cool and I am facinated every time they come out of the etch.

Bob Urban
 
Bob, I've just returned from an ABS knife making symposium and the blades for the MS test all have to be pattern welded and the ones for the JS test all have to be mono steel.

Vance, I think that we are talking about two different things here, though I haven't seen the program. They may have been talking about different methods of joining pieces of steel to form a structure, as in welding vs. bolting or welding vs. riveting. I think that the reason that many people think that a pattern welded blade is superior to a monosteel blade is pure hype. Like the Japanese swords carried in WWII cutting through machine gun barrels. Pure bunk but there are people out there that will swear that their great uncle was stationed in Japan after the war and he ran into an old Marine down at the E club who had run into another Marine when he was on Okinawa who saw it happen when the unit he was in was hit with a Bonzi charge on Iwo Jima. I think that the real advantage is that it can be anywhere from attractive to knock-your-socks-off gorgeous.
 
In reference to structural or mechanical items, a "scarf" type forge weld is almost always stronger than say a MIG or standard stick weld. I learned this in my early days of Blacksmithing....I lived in Arkansas, where the main crop was cotton. The machines used to pick cotton are a modified, self-propelled combine. The ground is always "sloppy" during harvest, and drive axles on these machines were often broken. I used to have a pretty good business forge welding those axles back together.....generally the farmers would come to me after the local "repair shop" had fixed a broken axle, and it would break again shortly after it had been re-installed. It took me several attempts on scrap axles to get it right, but of all the axles that I forge welded for farmers, non ever "re-broke".....well, I suppose I should say that none ever re-broke in the spot(s) that I had forge welded them......a few came back because the axle(s) broke later in a different spot(s).

As it relates to knife blades, heat treating is a big part of how the end products comes out. Technique and control of the forge welding process are key, especially when you reach for the MS level, where the performance test blade is required to be a minimum of 300 layer damascus.
 
Several things here, the need for folding in old blades (not what the myths claim), The enormous differences between fusion type welds and solid state welding, how the welders handle the operation after the bond occurs, the differences between metallic bonding and molecular, and the anisotropic effects of heavy drawing and folding.

Bloomery and tamahagane type steel are slaggy messes out of the smelter, they are more like blobs of huge sintered metal particles weakly forge welded at the little surfaces which touch each other, and all the spaces between filled with silica crud. Add to this the carbon is out of control in both directions with no resemblance of even distribution. The only way to fix all of this is to squash it and press it all together while squeezing out as much crud as you can. The problem is after a few “squishes” the stuff is too thin to give you any more mass to squash, so the logical thing to do is fold it to increase the thickness for more reduction. At welding heat the carbon, over a certain level, burns out and the rest gets diffused evenly through the steel. It is impossible to get all of the slag out of it so the pockets that are trapped will be a point flaw that can give you problems. However, the drawing and folding takes these flaws and makes them directional so that they are transvers to the length of the bar stock, i.e. you would have to cross section the bar and apply force from the perpendicular direction to see the weakness caused by them. So there was a time that folding and welding did indeed make better steel, because that was the only way steel could be made, but we continually developed newer and better ways to make steel. Today we just pour it from the molten state, all but eliminating the heavy slag inclusions, and then subject to rolling operations that employ reduction rates that make folding and welding seem silly. This is why it is laughable to have a bladesmith claim he is improving a ¼” bar of steel by hammering an edge on it after it was reduced from a 3 foot thick ingot.

MIG, TIG, SMAW, O/A torch and any other modern means of welding is known as fusion welding; the metal is liquefied and allowed to flow or alloy together into a solid piece. Forge welding is a different beast altogether and is known as solid state welding. It relies on heating the metal to the point that the excited metal atoms can be brought close enough to form metallic bonds, but it is almost impossible for complete fusion and thus you will have recognizable weld zones under close examination, this is why you get some level of damascus pattern even in welding the same steel to itself. Very few industries, that I know of, utilize forge welding for critical operations, but there are cases of mechanical type welding such as explosion welding to bond metals that due to their shape or alloying would not work with fusion welding. The difference in strengths is not in the bond, of which fusion is obviously greater, but in the condition of the weld zone after all is done. Fusion welding will create HUGE grains sizes as well as heavy carbide inclusions and concentrations. Carbon does not concentrate from solid state (forge) welding, in fact the weld zone losses some carbon, and the hammering action keeps the grain size under control. So it becomes obvious why forge welding works so well in a situation like the one described by Ed with the axles. The fusion welders could have had a greater success rate if they would have cycled and heat treated the weld zones, but the forge welds did most of this wonderfully all in one shot.

Beware of discussing molecules when talking about metals, television shows get this wrong all the time, but this is because they are solely about entertaining you, not boring you with facts, so they expend VERY little energy on researching what they are saying. In steel those pesky carbides that create problems in welds can be molecular but the metal itself is metallically bonded and crystalline in nature.

The ancients didn’t come up with any super materials that somehow turn steels evolution upside down, but they did come up with some great ways to make steel with what they had. Subsequent generations built on those technologies until we got what we have today. Now we are welding with lasers and I am certain there will be even more incredible methods of bonding in the future, but they will all still work within the boundaries of physics and chemistry… the boring stuff you won’t get on the History Channel :3:
 
Well I apologize for the misinformation and truly stand corrected. Not my intention at all - just my observations(incorrect I must add) Point being that mono is simpler and certainly more consistant by nature and I am quite certain the requirement for MS certs being 300+ layers is to test the skill of the craftsman in forge welding and not necesarily in blade strength or lack there of - Again, I may be corrected here and it is not my intention to lead this in the wrong direction but feel almost anyone given a particular chore that required one perfect blade to perform one perfect cut would choose mono steel to make it happen if their life depended on it. All else being equal.

Thanks for the clarification. I learn a lot here and appreciate all of it.

Bob Urban
 
I love it when Mr Cashen posts replies , they are so informative.

If we could just get everyone to believe the facts.
 
Chill, Bill. I made bigger mistakes than that when I started out. No biggie. Plus I didn't understand that ABS standards are a test of the knifesmith, not a test of the knives. You're right, the master's standards require a higher level of craftsmanship and technical skill than the journeyman's standards, though that extends to more than just using damascus. Someone told me that damascus, aka pattern welded steel, was once allowed for the journeyman's test but the judges kept having problems with examinees thinking that they would have some sort of a pass to excuse cold shuts and weld inclusions so it was restricted to mono steel only at the journeyman's level.

Doug
 
So the other day I was hanging out with my friend, television, and on the history channel there was an episode of Modern Marvels, on which they were talking about how welded sections of steel are more structurally sound than sections of non-welded steel. If I recall, it was because when heated to welding temperatures, the molecule's electron clouds are moving so rapidly, that they tend to interlace and the molecules would share electron clouds, giving the metal more tensile strength, and it made me start to think...

It is true that fusion welded joints are supposed to be stronger than the base material, but that has more to do with what filler is used and the design of the joint/weld. In tensile testing to qualify welding procedures, you want a break in the base material, not the heat affected zone or the weld. You can still pass if you get a break in either, if it meets the strength minimum, but it's not ideal. Weld filler is normally slightly stronger or matches the base material, such as in using 70,000 psi welding rods to weld 50,000 psi material together, or even 70,000 psi material together. In both cases, the welds and base are slightly stronger than they are rated to be. This all assumes the welder knew what he/she was doing and there are no flaws that will cause issues. Take a look at all the alloying in a box of welding rods some time. They are quite complicated. I have pictures of failures of welded pipelines where the pipe was made of rolled sheet with the ends welded to make a tube, then the tubes welded end to end. The failure went down the pipe length wise, following a sine wave pattern, avoiding the longitudinal welds and only crossing the circumferential welds at one point, not turning and following them. Arc welding excites more than the molecules (atoms). It's 4000 deg F and up. :thumbup1:
 
This is slightly tangent to the topic, but since Kevin brought it up:

“This is why it is laughable to have a bladesmith claim he is improving a ¼” bar of steel by hammering an edge on it after it was reduced from a 3 foot thick ingot.” Kevin R. Cashen

If we take a piece of ¼ inch rolled flat stock and forge the edge down to 1/16 of an inch, we have essentially quadrupled the grain refinement along the edge where it is the most important. This should be more than enough to be considered significant by any standard and is much different than say reducing a 3 foot ingot by 3/16 of an inch. The benefits of reduction are proportionate to the size of the stock. You’d have to check on it, but I seem to recall reading in several places that 50% reduction is enough to be considered significant and measurable by industrial standards.

In engineering, it is unsafe and unwise to assume that any steel is absolutely free of flaws and inclusions, and virtually all steel has them to varying degrees. Secondly, it is common practice to assume that the flaws exist in the worst possible locations.

In the event of a stringered inclusion on or very close to the edge of a blade, it would be unchanged as by stock reduction, as apposed to being displaced and minimized as through forging. Stringered inclusions weaken the steel transverse or perpendicular to the grain flow of the steel created by the rolling process.
 
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As a side note, which might also loosely pertain to the second part of Vance’s question:

The “quality” of the steel or degree of mechanical anisotropic grain refinement, can also have an effect on heat treating. The higher the quality of the steel the better it responds to heat treating. From what I seem to gather thus far, it is more even, more resistant to cracking and crack propagation etc., during heat treating and otherwise. This could possibly allow for faster quench speeds and higher hardnesses.

... Food for thought anyway.
 
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Yeah, in the long run,... I think the questions are really more important than the answers...

http://edwardboches.com/the-importance-of-asking-the-right-questions

Glossary of metallurgical terms:

http://vacaero.com/glossary-metallurg-terms.html

As far as I know,… since we don’t have any conclusive specific modern comprehensive industrial scientific laboratory studies on forged vs. machined knife blades and the likes of to point to, the possible applicable principals are still in play and ultimately left up to the artists and engineers to investigate and work out,... and the end users to verify based upon their own experiences, preferences and opinions.
 
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