Bruce McLeish
Well-Known Member
I've finished the initial shaping of a 1095 blade and want to try a hamon. So, how far do I go with the sanding before ht and etch?
Hamon question
- Thread starter Bruce McLeish
- Start date
Chris Railey
Well-Known Member
Although you will get different opinions I do not think it matters. Short of the obvious steps (clay etc.) I really do not change any of my normal process for a hamon blade. The finish work changes a little but not much. If you get it right the line will be in the steel sanding and polish will make it obvious. Etching and polishing will make it really obvious. Just know that the actual line will be lower than the edge of your clay line so make sure you do not go too close to the blade edge with your clay. I try to stay above the middle of the blade because I like my Hamons in the middle of the blade.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Hi Chris. I just wanted to point out that the above statement is not entirely accurate. There are many variables that can affect where the transition line will end up.
Steel type, clay layout, clay thickness, cross sectional geometry and austenitizing temperature are a few of the key variables to determining what and where hamon will form.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Can you please explain this statement in a little more detail? Thanks.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Pre heat treating sanding has zero effect on hamon formation.
In general principal, its a good idea to have blades cleaned up to a reasonable degree prior to quenching. 120 grit is probably fine. 220 is an even safer bet.
AkWildman
Well-Known Member
I've never tested it but was was told when I first started using clay to clean the top edge of the spine, if you leave a thick coating of clay on the spine the blade will supposedly curl up at the spine during quench and this is how the old Japanese sword Smith's achieved the upward arc in there blades.I cant remember who exactly told me this as it was a long time ago and I looked up to them so I always took the advice to heart .Could be a old myth like pointing your blade at magnetic north after the quench and after normalizing but I've never been brave enough to go against the advice of cleaning off the spine.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
I respectfully have to ask......if you have no real first hand experience with this, then why are we presenting this (mis)information dogmatically as fact?
It is true that SOME steels and SOME quenchants/methods will produce an upward curve to the spine.
But you can't make a general blanket statement to that affect.
The tops of my blade spines are ALWAYS coated with clay thicker than anywhere else on the blade.
I CAN tell you from numerous first hand experiences that long 1075 and w2 blades quenched edge down into parks 50 will actually drop slightly at the tip.....sometimes more than slightly.
A 7" long 1075 blade I'm working on right now underwent 3 quenches (experimenting to get hamon just right). Prior to the first quench, the spine was dead straight across the entire length. There was an 1/8" drop after the first quench. After the third, the entire spine was a continuous sloping drop point with the tip being over 3/8" lower than the spine at the ricasso.
Again meaning no disrespect.....just trying to correct mis-information.
AkWildman
Well-Known Member
So what do you chalk up the point drop to ? I've done a number of edge quenches and never experienced it. And I'm not trying to put out misinformation this is something I was told a long time ago and just made it one of those best practices in my routine just as if you gave me some advice who am I to question it ? I'm the type that if you tell me dont touch the stove it's hot I dont stick my hand on it to try and disprove you.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
The science behind why certain steels quenched in certain media experience sori or negative sori is far above my pay grade.
What I can tell from my actual first hand experience is that your blanket statement was incorrect. And whoever it was that told you that was incorrect. And since you didn't have first hand experience, you helped blindly pass along misinformation.
I'd hate to see the knife industry if everyone just blindly went along following the say-so of some of the most misinformed offenders of even 5-10 years ago. Heck.....some of the untrue ridiculous myths still have strong followings today because of the blind leading the blind.
Everyone has the power and ability and right to question everything. No one knows everything and no one is beyond reproach or questioning.
But that questioning should be backed up by personal experience/experimentation, not second or third hand info and wild guesses.
What I can tell from my actual first hand experience is that your blanket statement was incorrect. And whoever it was that told you that was incorrect. And since you didn't have first hand experience, you helped blindly pass along misinformation.
I'd hate to see the knife industry if everyone just blindly went along following the say-so of some of the most misinformed offenders of even 5-10 years ago. Heck.....some of the untrue ridiculous myths still have strong followings today because of the blind leading the blind.
Everyone has the power and ability and right to question everything. No one knows everything and no one is beyond reproach or questioning.
But that questioning should be backed up by personal experience/experimentation, not second or third hand info and wild guesses.
AkWildman
Well-Known Member
http://www.engnath.com/claytemp.htm I will take you advice Mr Doyle but again I'm not spreading false info and never would ,I'm a man of character and I also try and dispel old myths ,gota run out to the shop now and do some edge packing lol !
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Your missing the point.....and to be clear, I'm not saying you did anything malicious.....but your original statement wasn't true in all cases and you don't have any personal experience to add.
And you can post any link from anyone you want.....that doesn't automatically make them right. I briefly skimmed the link text and he APPEARS to say or imply that the curve will always be an upward one and IF that is indeed his position, he's flat out wrong. That's all there is to it. It doesn't make him a bad guy......it makes his info wrong. Same with you....you're not a bad person.....you passed on an incorrect statement with no first hand experience with the topic. I'm not upset at you or angry....just wanted to correct misinformation.
Here's the indisputable FACT......All blades don't always curve up......sometimes they curve down.
And you can post any link from anyone you want.....that doesn't automatically make them right. I briefly skimmed the link text and he APPEARS to say or imply that the curve will always be an upward one and IF that is indeed his position, he's flat out wrong. That's all there is to it. It doesn't make him a bad guy......it makes his info wrong. Same with you....you're not a bad person.....you passed on an incorrect statement with no first hand experience with the topic. I'm not upset at you or angry....just wanted to correct misinformation.
Here's the indisputable FACT......All blades don't always curve up......sometimes they curve down.
Kevin R. Cashen
Super Moderator
Tamahagane vs. modern steels is like comparing auto-mechanics to crocheting, and the variable of each are infinite.
John, I have a good amount of data on the metallurgy of positive vs. reverse sori, clay application and the microstructures responsible, but it may require another day trip to Matherton forge to get into it...
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Tamahagane vs. modern steels is like comparing auto-mechanics to crocheting, and the variable of each are infinite.
John, I have a good amount of data on the metallurgy of positive vs. reverse sori, clay application and the microstructures responsible, but it may require another day trip to Matherton forge to get into it...
That would be very interesting for me.
Chris Railey
Well-Known Member
Sorry John. I have not studied all of those factors you mentioned, the advice I gave was based 100% on personal experience alone in trying to produce hamons in my simple shop with simple methods. I can HT a knife with a hamon and I have noticed in my little corner of the world that when I place the clay (generic term) at or below half way down the blade I am not happy with my results. When I place the clay line above the center line of the blade I am happy with the results. I guess you can call me more of a learn by doing person.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
No worries Chris.
Sometimes hamon will creep up underneath the clay. If clay application was extremely thin or a blade had a small cross section, like a hunter or folder blade, or the austenitizing heat was in the higher range......those could all be factors that might mike the hamon creep up higher than the clay.
And sometimes....like what just happened to a buddy of mine recently......you put all of your experience into practice thinking you know how the blade will respond and you place your clay accordingly......and the hamon still does the opposite of what you expected.
That's kinda the point here.....creating hamon is one of those lifelong studies in knifemaking. No matter how much experience you have, you still get surprised now and again. There are way too many variables to speak about it in general absolutes.
Have a good weekend.