Cables damascus problem

Kampman Knives

Kampman Knives

Well-Known Member
Hey there,
I have been trying to weld forge cable damast for about 10 times and i don't know what i am doing wrong but at the end i don't see any pattern, getting pretty frustrated here so i hope someone can help me out?
I know how to forge weld and to work in the right temperature, i have been making my own damast and i do everything by hand - i don't have a power hammer.

Here's what i do:

- Clean the cable from grease and dirt.
- Cut them in pieces about 15 cm.
- Weld the ends together.
- Heat it up till its orange and give it a extra twist so the cable is more tight.
- I bring it up to the right temperature to yellow and flux it before and after, i keep it clean from scale with a wire brush.
- I keep forging till i have a solid bar and all sides a good forge welded.
- Than i work the bar out into a flat piece from where i can make a shape for a type of knife.

Than i check the cable damascus bar by grinding and sanding it shiny to see the pattern, and than i use ferric acid or others to etch and the pattern would normally come out like damascus.
Until now i barely see the pattern and it looks like one piece of solid steel, when i etched it nothing happens except that it darkens the steel??
I don't work to hot and if i would work to cold it doesn't weld together,....so what is going on and what am i doing wrong or is possible that some types of steel cable are not good for cable damascus?
 
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There's no way I have knowledge about Damascus, but when made from all the same steel, the pattern will be very subtle.... will it not? From my understanding, it's the contrast metal (high carbon and nickel steel - 1095 & 15N20 for example) that gives the nice patterns after etching. Are the welds good? No delaminations visible? Perhaps you should send a few billets for me to examine? {grinning}

I admire all ya'll who actually forge weld steel!

Ken H>
 
KenH said:
There's no way I have knowledge about Damascus, but when made from all the same steel, the pattern will be very subtle.... will it not? From my understanding, it's the contrast metal (high carbon and nickel steel - 1095 & 15N20 for example) that gives the nice patterns after etching. Are the welds good? No delaminations visible? Perhaps you should send a few billets for me to examine? {grinning}

I admire all ya'll who actually forge weld steel!

Ken H>
Click to expand...
Hey Ken, even if the cable is all the same sort of steel than you will have a loss of carbon after forg welding, what makes a pattern still visible,... i have hearth that maybe i have to change cable, like a elevator cable with more strains in it, or even better for color contrast strains from different material?
 
My first cable billet is the same, but i think the pattern will be more pronounced after heat treat. If it looks like a solid piece of steel now, the only thing I'd read into it at this point is that you did a good job with the welding. If you make a blade, harden it, and still have the mono-steel look, at that point I'd go for different material.
 
Trying to sucessfully weld cable is handicapping ones self just about as much as you can get. I know some may say to start out welding cable, but compared to welding straight laminates, it's about 5X more difficult. Basically with cable, you have a BUNCH of tiny round rods, all wrapped around one another, and when trying to forge weld, they just want to 'slip-n-slide" past each other. Since all those "little rods" are made of the same alloy(s), the only way you achieve pattern in cable is via the decarb that occurs when welding it.

With a billet of 1080/15N20, you'll have much greater chances for early successes, and the pattern won't be "hit-n-miss".
 
It was my understanding the loss of carbon during forging (simple or Damascus) is rather minimal, BUT - as I said before, I am NOT an expert on this subject - only by reading. Prof Kevin is the real person to chime in on the loss of carbon subject.

Travis, you and Mr Kampman both be sure to post pattern results after heat treating. Both of ya'll are MUCH more of an expert than I am - ya'll have actually forged Damascus<:)

Ken H>
 
Ed, you posted while I was writing my post - just how much decarb pattern will occur? Does "decarb" = "carbon loss" during forging?

Ken H>
 
Another theory that I've heard about why you get a pattern with wire or bars of the same steel forge welded together is that the forge welding does not make a complete union along the between the steel wires or bars and this is what shows up when etched.

Pick whichever theory you like, the results are the same.

Doug
 
Okay thanx people for all the feedback!
I didn't find it so hard to make a billet out of cable and the forging looks solid but i agree with Ed that it is more difficult than welding straight laminates!
I am hard headed and will not give up until i can do this so that means i keep on hammering and testing it out, first i am going to do a heath treat and see what comes out and than i move on to other solutions and tryouts;)
 
KenH said:
Travis, you and Mr Kampman both be sure to post pattern results after heat treating. Both of ya'll are MUCH more of an expert than I am - ya'll have actually forged Damascus<:)
Click to expand...

I've done this exactly once and got lucky! Had a good teacher on the forge welding in general, but we can do a much better job with the cable next time now that I've done more homework.
 
just how much decarb pattern will occur? Does "decarb" = "carbon loss" during forging?
Click to expand...

Yes, decarb does equal carbon loss. The amount of decarb that occurs depends on many factors. The easiest way to say it, is that the individual's forging/welding technique has everthing to do with it.
 
I've never quite bought the idea of the pattern in cable resulting from carbon loss even though I've seen good evidence for it...:)
Seems like, theoretically, carbon migration would even things back out quickly, and therefore there should be no pattern, but there is... perhaps there is something more to it than simple decarb, but I'm not entirely buying Doug's theory either, the micrographs I've seen of cable show good through welds with very little if any micro-inclusions, yet there is a pattern. I suspect the flux itself may play a roll.

Regardless, all cable is not created equal, some types of cable show a bolder pattern than others. This could be the problem. I suggest trying a slower etch, either by thinning you etching solution or even trying a gentler one. My limited experience with cable has lead me to believe that the slower the etch, the better. Etch for 10 minutes, clean off the oxides, then continue... repeat until a pattern shows or you run out of patience. I cannot guarantee this will work, but it might. If it doesn't, try cable from a different source.
 
Kampman Knives said:
Hey there,
I have been trying to weld forge cable damast for about 10 times and i don't know what i am doing wrong but at the end i don't see any pattern, getting pretty frustrated here so i hope someone can help me out?
I know how to forge weld and to work in the right temperature, i have been making my own damast and i do everything by hand - i don't have a power hammer.

Here's what i do:

- Clean the cable from grease and dirt.
- Cut them in pieces about 15 cm.
- Weld the ends together.
- Heat it up till its orange and give it a extra twist so the cable is more tight.
- I bring it up to the right temperature to yellow and flux it before and after, i keep it clean from scale with a wire brush.
- I keep forging till i have a solid bar and all sides a good forge welded.
- Than i work the bar out into a flat piece from where i can make a shape for a type of knife.

Than i check the cable damascus bar by grinding and sanding it shiny to see the pattern, and than i use ferric acid or others to etch and the pattern would normally come out like damascus.
Until now i barely see the pattern and it looks like one piece of solid steel, when i etched it nothing happens except that it darkens the steel??
I don't work to hot and if i would work to cold it doesn't weld together,....so what is going on and what am i doing wrong or is possible that some types of steel cable are not good for cable damascus?
Click to expand...

Have not been on in some time, usually tooo busy, plus I'm way too old & set in my ways to learn to respond quickly on the computer. My experience with cable DAMascus has been over 20+ years, (not all cable works) the differences in your forgework & mine on cable is as follows; first I soak mine in apple cider vinegar after cutting/welding ends, for a day.. then after bringing it upto 1350 degrees, I open the cable slightly, apply a generous gob of flux working it down inside the twist, then back into the forge, slowly bring it back to 1400 degrees, remove & twist the flux out of it. Return to the forge, bring slowly upto welding temp', place in the junction of the cuttoff plate & face of anvil & forge (you could also use a V-block) this will keep the cable from smushing apart. Once forgewelded together, forge mto shape & anneal. Grind/clean/prepare for HT as usual. After HT reclean, Hand sand to 320 grit lengthwise & slow etch (I use ferric chloride @ 50/50) for 10 minutes, clean & repeat until desired etch depth is achieved. The cables I've used over the years has responded well to this treatment. Bearclaw
 
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