First Ever heat treating!

Ernie Swanson

SASSY PINK LUUNCHBOX KNIFE MAKER
Ok everyone, A few days ago I decided to do a little experiment.

I took 4 small pieces of steel, put a bevel on them all to see if any crack. heat treated, and tempered them.
I had 1 piece each of
5160
1080
1084
1095

I did everything the same except for the 1095.

I got them all to non magnetic and then quenched in around 120 degree canola oil.
(the 1095 I soaked for around 1 minute without really changing color)

I then put them all in the oven at 400 degrees for 1 hour, took them out and let cool to room temp then put them all back in at 400 for one more hour.

I sent them to craig to get tested and today he had the results for me.

1095 - 58 RC
1084 - 58 RC
1080 - 38 RC
5160 - 50-52 near the hole and 40-41 near the bevel.

I was under the assumption that 5160 was the easiest to heat treat and 1095 would be the worst.
Looks like I do everything backwards:D
must be because I am from Wisconsin:eek:
 
Prob just need to get it a bit hotter, and quench quickly, I keep my tank about a foot from my oven it comes out and goes in the oil in less than a second. Try it a few more times in low light and note the color too, after a while you will get to know the right shade. This is just from one noob to another though, as you know someone with a lot more knowledge will chime in soon.
 
The problems with doing test like your is that the most important parameter is totally uncontrolled.....austenitization temperature.
And, the soak timing was wrong.

The temps and soak times for austinitization are:
5160 - 1525F for 5 min.
1080 & 1084 - 1500F no soak required, but 1 min. to equalize
1095 - 1475F for 5 min.

You were heating the metal somewhere above 1350F....but how much???? nobody knows?

The 1080 and 1084 are eutectoid steels, and have low alloy content, so they go into solution easily and quench simply.
The 1095 is hyper-eutectoid, and needs some time to allow the extra carbon to go into solution.It must be fast quenched.
The 5160 is an alloy steel, and needs time for the chromium to go into solution.Quench is any oil.

If you repeat the test with higher temperatures, better control of the heat, and longer soak time, the results will be as you suspected they should be.

5160 is one of the most forgiving steels to HT because once you get the carbon and chromium into solution at 1525F, it will harden easily with any kind of oil quench. If you use old motor oil, ATF, vegi oil, etc. 5160 is your friend.

If you were to try your experiment with an indicator of the heat, such as the melting point of salt, or temp-stix, then you would have more of an idea what temperatures you are austenitizing the steel at.
 
Thats what I dont understand.
Everything I found on Heat treating the 5160,1084 and 1080 said to get to non magnetic and then quench quickly. I have my oil right under my forge so it dont take but a second.
Also everyone said that the 1095 could not be done well doing the way I was, with a 2 brick forge and no way to tell heat.

I got them all to non magnetic checking often.(I have a magnet right by the opening to my forge) Then quenched.
Except for the 1095 I did keep that in there for around 1 minute not letting the color change.

So what I dont understand is how everyone says 1095 cannot be done good like this and with out a 5 minute soak but how did I get a hardness of 58RC?

I know I have a lot to learn and experiment with.
 
5160: it's not so much that you need the chromium to go into solution, the minor alloys like chrome, vanadium, moly, tungsten really don't flow around much due to their much higher melting temperatures. But, the chromium will hold onto the carbon longer and not let it dissolve and flow around as fast as the iron, so it needs more time to allow for this.

1095 does have more carbon, but not the minor alloying elements and a longer soak time is not all that much of an advantage due to the risk of having all that extra carbon forming retained austenite.

More than likely, your small forge is the problem. I think I read "two brick" correctly. The heat exchange is pretty large for such a small mass and each time you put a piece of cool steel in there it sucks the environment down to the steel level rather than having the steel warm up to the forge. This might not even be something you can see with the naked eye. To your brain, all the colors are right, but technically things are off inside the forge. More mass in the forge walls will help and so will a good pyrometer. If this is the problem, then soak time will be helpful in equalizing the temperature of the steel, but really is more waiting for the forge to equalize at austenitizing temperature rather than a carbon solution issue. Your blades should all look like they are an even color without any shadows (hot edge darker back etc).

On the backside of the forge issue is overheating. Because the forge is small there can be a tendency to overshoot the best temperatures and soaking longer can be risky for grain issues.

This sounds much more of a likely solution to the problem given the hardnesses you got in the order you reported them. Otherwise it sounds like your setup is good. For a first time, those aren't bad results.

I'm curious as to what burner type you're using?
 
I am using the Bernzomatic Jth-7 torch.

I am going and doing basically what I have read in various Internet finds and the $50 knife shop book.

I am going to get a oven someday soon, I built the forge to play around with.
 
That $50.00 knife shop book needs to be banned. Unfortunately, it is full of erroneous info concerning HT and quench mediums, although for your level, canola oil is not too bad a choice. Considering. No steel will go into full solution at just non-magnetic. For your purposes and a practical need to know level, non-magnetic is only the beginning, and is only 1414°. Your heat should be about 50° to 75° hotter for any of those steels. Note your non-magnetic color, then increase about two shades redder in heat. Forget the 1095 for now, but the rest will work for you. As far as the 1095, and many other steels, hardness is not everything. 58 Rc for 1095 tempered at 400° says that it was not hot enough. I would think that it should have been around 60/62 Rc. Go back and re-read what Stacy Apelt told you. Stacy is pretty sharp on HT. And toss that book.
 
Ern
Kevin Cashen has a very good sticky in the shop area on BF. It helped me to understand what is going on in the steel. Granted it is not "light" reading.:) I have read and re-read it and each time pick up a new nugget of info that I missed.
For me once I began to understand the process that is taking place in the steel, then the means to get there began to become a little more clear. I started to understand why some guys are so picky about "known steel", proper heat control, and quench medium.
 
One can hardly do better than Kevins writings, but as said, you have to read them over and over, and it helps to take notes, and learn the terminology.
 
I have read Kevin's info before about 30 times. Also I have read a lot of other info.
Just about everyone I have talked to and everything I have read said 1095 cannot be heat treated in a two brick forge.

I went against the odds on this and heat treated 1095, I got a hardness of 58 RC, to me that don't seem bad. It might not be as hard as some people would like but hey I tried and it want to bad of a failure.
I am going to try a small 1095 blade and 2 1084 blades tonight.
These blades are going to my brother, a friend and myself for testing.


As far as the $50 knife shop, goes that book has a lot of good info and the way I see it is that everyone needs to start somewhere and should try different things. How do you think all these guys that know what they are doing learned.
You can only learn from mistakes. I will learn nothing if I do exactly what everyone tells me.

Also From everything I have read gives a different way to heat treat and temper steel, and if you ask anyone they will give you their way of doing it. That does not mean there are no other ways of getting satisfactory results.

For example here is a link that says
for 1095 bring to 1425 - 1450 and quench immediately.
then temper between 400 and 600 depending on hardness.
http://ajh-knives.com/metals.html#metal0
 
, and if you ask anyone they will give you their way of doing it. That does not mean there are no other ways of getting satisfactory results.

.

Ern
First of all let me say I think its great that you are starting to try new things, and it sounds like you did pretty well. I do believe you have to make your own mistakes in order to truly learn.

I hope I didnt give you the wrong impression. Your statement is spot on, meaning if you ask 4 knifemakers how to HT steel X you will get 10 answers.
Im no expert, nor do I claim to be, I just know what I have learned. I really like Wayne Goddard, but Ive come to the conclusion I dont prefer his methods even though he has great results. It is a natrual progression to question the accepted standards whether in knifemaking or anything else for that matter. When I first started I read Kevin's material and since I didnt understand it I used other methods, but the more I studied (and I do mean alot of hours of reading:confused:) the more I realized that there is plenty of room to learn while "staying inside the lines". I wanted and still want to know what makes steel act the way it does. She is a picky girl. I also wanted to be able to achieve consistant, repeatable results.

I say keep it up. Alot of us started with a one or two brick forge. You have done very well using what you have, from files and luchboxes;) and now moving on to HT'ing. Your work has kept improving and you have a desire to learn, but most of all I think you are a guy who just loves knives.
Just my .02$

Sean
 
"You can only learn from mistakes."
Life can be easier if you learn from others mistakes.
 
"You can only learn from mistakes."
Life can be easier if you learn from others mistakes.

This is true and possible but, If everyone took in account someone else's mistakes then they would never learn alternative ways to do things.

Here is a link to prove my theory, there are 4 different ways to HT cpm154 explained, So who is right? everyone has there own way of doing things and I am looking for mine!!! right now I am just experimenting and learning until I get an oven.
 
That $50.00 knife shop book needs to be banned. Unfortunately, it is full of erroneous info concerning HT and quench mediums, although for your level, canola oil is not too bad a choice. Considering. No steel will go into full solution at just non-magnetic. For your purposes and a practical need to know level, non-magnetic is only the beginning, and is only 1414°. Your heat should be about 50° to 75° hotter for any of those steels. Note your non-magnetic color, then increase about two shades redder in heat. Forget the 1095 for now, but the rest will work for you. As far as the 1095, and many other steels, hardness is not everything. 58 Rc for 1095 tempered at 400° says that it was not hot enough. I would think that it should have been around 60/62 Rc. Go back and re-read what Stacy Apelt told you. Stacy is pretty sharp on HT. And toss that book.

We are not going to bash the author on this forum and it will not be tolorated. This man has done way too much for knifemakers and bashing his work is wrong. We will not do that.

Ernie here are some things to think about. Where you live. As in I know where you live and the humidity is nothing to were I live. This could change things. The inside diameter of you forge could effect things. Were you outside and it was a windy day. Where did you get your steel from? You are on the right track. Find what works for you. As Sean stated ask 4 makers get 10 different ways. Look at where they are from and the climate. Sean your 2cents spoke volumes. Keep going E, you are on the right track!!!!
 
We are not going to bash the author on this forum and it will not be tolorated. This man has done way too much for knifemakers and bashing his work is wrong. We will not do that.

Ernie here are some things to think about. Where you live. As in I know where you live and the humidity is nothing to were I live. This could change things. The inside diameter of you forge could effect things. Were you outside and it was a windy day. Where did you get your steel from? You are on the right track. Find what works for you. As Sean stated ask 4 makers get 10 different ways. Look at where they are from and the climate. Sean your 2cents spoke volumes. Keep going E, you are on the right track!!!!


I was outside but it was not windy at all.
The steel I got from different makers on here.

The main thing I cannot figure out is how the one steel, everyone says is the easiest I did worst but the one that everyone said is the hardest I got reasonable results
 
That $50.00 knife shop book needs to be banned. Unfortunately, it is full of erroneous info concerning HT and quench mediums, although for your level, canola oil is not too bad a choice. Considering. No steel will go into full solution at just non-magnetic. For your purposes and a practical need to know level, non-magnetic is only the beginning, and is only 1414°. Your heat should be about 50° to 75° hotter for any of those steels. Note your non-magnetic color, then increase about two shades redder in heat. Forget the 1095 for now, but the rest will work for you. As far as the 1095, and many other steels, hardness is not everything. 58 Rc for 1095 tempered at 400° says that it was not hot enough. I would think that it should have been around 60/62 Rc. Go back and re-read what Stacy Apelt told you. Stacy is pretty sharp on HT. And toss that book.

Sorry. I went too far. My apologies.
 
Ern,

The 1095 thing is a little daunting, I know, but It was prob just chance that you got it to just the right point before quenching... Mind you there are a LOT of guys that heat treat the way you are attempting with great results, I did it for a while this way(results varied). The main thing is to know exactly when you hit nonmagnetic and try to get it just a bit warmer. Stacy is right when he says its a gamble when you dont know the true temp of the forge... Ive taken a few blades past nonmagnetic and thought I had hit it spot on, then the edge folded... its a game of chance. Just keep at it and dont let it discourage you. I would however stick with the 1080 and 5160 even though I know you got the 1095 right the first time, there is a good chance it wont happen again, and for what its worth Im really enjoying following your progress, your ambition is incredible... Just my .02 and thanks for sharing the experience.
 
I am going to experiment with the 1080 and 5160 more, I will not make a blade from them until I can ht them right, With the results I got from them being so bad, I am not at all confident with them.

Last night I heat treated 1 1095 blade and 2 1084 blades.
I took the 1095 out every few seconds until non magnetic and to also let the heat distribute and cool the edge a bit, Then I set it by the opening for about 3 minutes and it never changed color past what I would say two shades redder past non magnetic.
I did practice on some mild steel I had, just working the colors and magnetics.

Hopefully all went well. I am giving the 1095 blade to my brother and one of the 1084's to a friend to test. I am keeping the other 1084.

Here is a question for anyone!
If I were to obtain a hamon with any of these would I be able to see it with out etching? or should I throw it in some solution to see?

Thanks everyone for your opinions and words, I am taking it all in.
 
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