When is a knife a toy?

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KNIFE MAKER
Hey guys....we're making these butterfly knives that have aluminum blades and are purposely dull and have a fidget bearing in them.

As I look at some of the goofy knife laws I realize if a law enforcement person was hard-nosed these could be illegal as they would still technically be a knife even though they don't cut.

How do I define this thing without getting in trouble? It is no more a weapon than a toy plastic pistol is a weapon...

Any help is appreciated.
 
Supply a short write up on some paper describing the item, what it's made of, possibly describing how it works { I know nothing off this new bearing phenomenon } and most importantly note that the owner is responsible for all local laws that may apply.
I do that with my neck knives because once it's around your neck and under your shirt it could be considered a concealed weapon in some places. as far as "hard nosed law enforcement" goes, that can apply to a baseball bat in the backseat of your car. it is what it is.
 
As long as the blade can be sharpened, LE (and any competent prosecutor) will view it as a knife. The only way you'll get around it is by using a blade that can't be sharpened, like rubber.

The difference between your examples, the plastic gun and your knife, is that your knife can be sharpened, but there's no way to make the plastic gun fire a bullet.
 
When is a screwdriver a burglary tool? answer: When a cop says it is.

I'm with Steve on this. Supply each one with a description that says it comes unsharpened and is intended to be a toy and that any alteration.... yada yada lawyer speak. (I would personally have an attorney supply the verbiage.)


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Actually, a screwdriver is never a burglary tool, but it's presence with tools that are only burglary tools can prove intent.

In this case, I would say that the ability to sharpen an aluminum blade proves that it's intended to be a knife, and a blade that can't be sharpened would prove that it's a toy.
 
Thanks guys.

When you all sell knives across state lines via your website are YOU responsible for the different state laws or is the BUYER?


and yes, I could sharpen this on a sidewalk in about two minutes....
 
My answer is this..... Don't try to straddle ANY lines. If there's a question of whether a given knife is "legal"....don't make it, or if you do, don't sell it to any locale where it's not fully legal. Frankly, with building anything that looks like a butterfly knife, your asking for trouble, even if it's suppose to be a "trainer" or a "toy". Is it worth your legal standing and reputation? I get lots of requests for both Butterfly Knives, as well as Switchblade knives, and they all get turned down.

EVERY single year at the Blade Show there is always some Knifemaker who thinks he's smarter then the law...who brings "switchblades", but keeps them under the table until someone asks.....and every year someone gets nailed by ATF, who will walk up to a table and ask if they have any switchblades.....and the knucklehead pulls it from under the table.....then leaves the room in silver bracelets.

An example of making sure your wares are legal are my EBKs.... one of the things that went into designing those knives was that they be legal to carry in all 50 states.... hence the reason for the length of the blades.

When it comes to selling, it's in your best interests to research and know what's "legal", and what's not.... if people can get away with law suits on gun companies because somebody committed a crime with a gun that company made, I doubt they'd have any problems with small timers like us.
 
Thanks Ed....along the lines of what I was thinking.

Here's why I didn't even consider this till working on blueprints: AMAZON sells more versions of balisongs and butterfly knives both dull AND sharp. How do they pull if off? I can't imagine a giant like that skirting any laws. I do know they are very skilled at resting the liability of any product they rep on the MFG. Still, that does not give them carte Blanche to advertise and sell something illegal on their site. Any ideas anyone?

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...p&sprefix=balisongs,aps,177&crid=7G5U85KIQIPA

also, this site helps a bit...but to do what I'd like I would have to be constantly reviewing state laws on Balis....
With all the Balis on AMAZON something doesn't quite add up? how are THEY selling knives so easily via internet across all state lines?

http://weaponlaws.wikidot.com/us-switchblade-laws


 
As the "middle man" I suspect they are deflecting any possible liability by using the words "Blunt", "Practice", "Unsharpened", and "Safe" in there descriptions of the products. You can bet your boots that before Amazon ever offered any of those for sale, they had an army of Lawyers go through it with a fine toothed comb. That doesn't necessarily mean that somebody couldn't "go after" them, but then again, Amazon has the resources in both manpower and money to fight it and win, where as folks like you and I most likely do not.:) For Amazon, they are weighing whether the risk is worth the profit, and for them, it likely is.....for guys like you and I? I'm thinking not.
 
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or sell it as a kit, not to be assembled in any jurisdiction where it would become illegal. isn't that how companies sold switchblades for years?

easy for me to say of course- i'm not the one taking the risk


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As done in the firearms world, they probably have a list of states they'll sell to and a list of states they won't.

If you try to buy from one of the states they don't sell to, (based on your shipping address) they'll simply say no.

Let me ask you this: what exactly are you trying to do? Produce and sell a practice bali? Then just build it so it can't be made to cut. Or don't sell it. Or pay an attorney for real answers to these questions. What you're asking for is turning into specific legal advice, and the internet is the worst place ever invented by man to ask for legal advice. Even if a lawyer answers here, he's not your lawyer. The only way a lawyer is bound to you and has a fiduciary duty to you is if you hire him or her, and pay them. So my advice is this: do exactly that before you sell any practice balis over the internet.

Pay for the real answers, establish your policies according to those answers, and go for it.
 
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Andrew....great idea!!

What about a wrench out of good tough steel...say 4140about 50rc that looks like this:

wrench.jpg

Then you have a multi-tool for skateboards and bikes that is fun to play with! (just the blade...errr...wrench shown...)
 
Personally, I would sell them and just add paperwork with it like I mentioned earlier stating the end owner-user assumes all liability regarding state and local laws. I think if you have it documented somewhere that that is how they are being presented and sold you should be ok.
Now if your selling them at a show out of state or somewhere your going that you know ahead of time that there may be legal issues than your taking a foolish risk. as far as lawsuits, I think we're always at risk....if someone falls in the woods and your knife happens to go thru their eye you can be sure there's a lawyer somewhere that will try to convince a jury you are responsible for the injuries to some extent.
 
Varies too much from state to state to be worth the risk. Some states might allow possession but not sale. Other states vise-versa. Other states allow neither. Similar situation here in Ohio with Tannerite. Can buy and sell and possess. Can NOT mix and use without a permit. Federal law says it is NOT an explosive and thus legal. Ohio law says it is once mixed. :34:
 
Varies too much from state to state to be worth the risk. Some states might allow possession but not sale. Other states vise-versa. Other states allow neither. Similar situation here in Ohio with Tannerite. Can buy and sell and possess. Can NOT mix and use without a permit. Federal law says it is NOT an explosive and thus legal. Ohio law says it is once mixed. :34:

Yep. My son hated the wrench idea so we moved it to fidget spinner status by changing the blade. It will not have the cool looking dagger appeal...lol. But should still be fun,,,I'm starting another prototype now.

Thank you all for weighing in on this...BIG help!
 
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