A Chopper hardcore survival knife

SRT

Active Member
Most of my Knives are from CPM 154 and some other Crucible steels plus Alabama Damascus. Mostly Hunting/skinners usually with bolsters and filework ( fancy) or- just functional -and get good feedback . Have used 01 tool steel some and only twice with 1095( not as confident about heat treat and Rusts like crazy). I use an Evenheat kiln and have a Rockwell tester. Guy said to me "I want a thick Knife , more of a tool,I can beat the hell out of, Support my weight to pull up on, Split wood , stay razor sharp etc.etc. Bushcraft or survival I suppose.
I do mostly hollow grind and some flat grind ,no Scandi. So my question is about the steel , not the grind : Which steel of the high chromium alloys would be the toughest and stand up to abuse for a "NOT LET you down wilderness knife" and what RC hardness to shoot for? Would probably use 3/16 thickness
 
I know it's not an answer to your steel type question(s), but when I hear something like this....

"I want a thick Knife , more of a tool,I can beat the hell out of, Support my weight to pull up on, Split wood , stay razor sharp etc.etc.

I turn down the order.

To explain... experience has taught me that when you get involved with a client who has a mindset like that, it's going to be a long, painful experience. I've done it twice (I was too young/dumb to learn my lesson the first time). In both cases, I eventually ended up refunding the customers' money just to stop the agony. Both of those knives were returned to me multiple times, each with obvious signs of serious abuse. Mashed butt caps from being hammered on, bent blades, beat up spines from being beat on with a hammer or hatchet, and many other kinds of "deformities" caused by things that should never be done with a "knife". At the time, I was too inexperienced to realize I was making trouble for myself, and all I saw was someone who wanted one of my knives, and I wanted to please the individuals, and maybe get some future orders out of it. NOT! If you do go ahead with the build/transaction, I would recommend that you be VERY specific as to what you will and will not cover under your warranty, otherwise I suspect the customer will push the knife to failure, just to see where that point is, then will want you to repair or replace it.
A knife is a knife, there are other tools/devices made to do those other things you mentioned, that a knife is not intended for.

All that being said, when it comes to a steel, I am unaware of anything that will meet your specification of "high chromium alloy" that would be satisfactory for the use circumstances you indicated. If you go ahead with the build, it's going to require some serious "give-n-take" if you mean to stick with a "high chromium" alloy steel. Honestly, there are going to have to be major compromises no matter what steel type you use.
 
I don't think so. No matter what/how you build it, if a person wants to destroy it, they will find a way. Of course you could build something heavy duty, and call it a knife, but where does a thing cease to be a knife, and become something else? A knife is a cutting tool. Not a pry bar, not a hammer, not a screwdriver, etc. It's certainly possible to build a knife shaped object that is capable of doing those things, but then it's no longer a knife.

All of the things the OP mentioned are red flags for most experienced knifemakers. If a knifemaker allows them self to be sucked into a request of that type, you can bet that it's going to be agony..... the knife is going to either be returned multiple times to have damage repaired, or for total replacement. In many cases with requests of this type, the individual making the request will do their best to destroy the "knife"....just to see how far it can be pushed before failure. There's been a trend of similar actions within the tactical knife world for a while now..... people ordering custom tactical folders, then destroying them intentionally, and then return them to the maker, seeking free repair or replacement.

I can only speak for myself, but as a knifemaker, I work long and hard on each knife to ensure it's the best overall that I can produce, and I admit that I get angry when a knife comes back to me with signs of blatant/obvious abuse. Especially when the customer expects me to fix or replace it for free (which most do). For me, I don't want that type of owner for one of my knives anyway, and it's the reason I would turn down such a request. I can do a lot of things, but the one thing I can't fix, is stupid.
 
Years ago some of the crudely finished "survival" knives had all the appeal of a pry-bar with one sharp edge. Perhaps the lack of detail was an admission of intended use....a cave man was gonna bang it on a rock...no need for engraving.

If that is not the type of knife you usually build....direct the cave-man to the nearest cave-man knive shop. Otherwise he will not be happy with you nor you with him.

Every knife will suffer some form of light abuse. But when extreme abuse is stated in the build requirement....why bother?

Unless pry-bars are what you love to build....

I'm beginning to see why many custom makers build collectables....

Why build things for someone who has watched too many Batman movies. The hollywood performance of high tech gear never plays out in real life...there is no special effects crew to hand the "hero" a seventh and eighth knive when the stunt destroys the prior one.....:biggrin:
 
I don't think so. No matter what/how you build it, if a person wants to destroy it, they will find a way. I can do a lot of things, but the one thing I can't fix, is stupid.


Slightly edited but, pretty much to the point! I once had a fella bring me an ax. The head had obviously used as a splitting mall. The head of the ax was beat down and run off to one side by at least 3/8". The head had gotten loose so many times that he had drilled a hole thru it too hold it on the handle! He had finally broken the ax head off of the handle!

He stood there in my shop and with the ax head extended like a dead animal and asked me, "can you fix that"! I looked at him and took the ax head from his hand, sure I said, as I chunked the ax head in my scrap pile. I walked over to my tool wall,removed an ax, a sledge hammer and a splitting wedge! Holding the ax out I said this is used for cutting wood and splitting, if the wood is seasoned right. Holding out the sledge and the splitting wedge I said this is what you use to drive this wedge into a block of wood to split it, when the wood is tough to split! For about $100 dollars you can probably buy all three!

He stood there for a minute,
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and I began to smile. I guess I did over do it a bit, he said. I said, "you think"!!!! You are lucky a piece of the ax head was not embedded in your skull!!! Have you ever heard the saying, the right tool for the job!!

I agree with Ed, "you can't fix stupid" but sometimes it is a lot fun to poke it with a stick!
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i blame the never ending stream of survival shows on TV. I'm all for survival and for learning skills. The problem is that these shows were intended to show people what is *possible* in the unlikely event that you find yourself stranded in the Amazon jungle in your skivvies with only a knife. You can, in fact, use a knife to do all sorts of stuff *if you had to*. Somehow, the idea has festered that your knife is supposed to do all of these things as a matter of course, and that you should run around with only a knife to do these things.

As soon as people found out that I make knives, the idiotic requests came pouring in. People send you pictures of the most ridiculous flea market crap and ask if you can make it for them. Worse, they find a custom maker who is turning out something that is by all accounts a useless POS catering to the mall ninja crowd and they want you to make them one for peanuts because you are their friend. It took me a while to learn to say no because as a maker you want to please your customer.

I'm not disparaging the makers who cater to the mall ninja crowd. If all I wanted to do was make money, that's probably the only logical way to go. I could be on the next plane to China with a pile of CAD drawings under my arm.
 
Before we go too far overboard, I want to emphasis that the MAJORITY of custom knife buyers are fabulous people. Most know and understand that a knife is a cutting tool, and use it for it's intended purpose. What we are talking about here is a very small percentage of the overall buyers of custom knives, that generally fall into two categories... 1. Those who don't know any better. 2. Those who simply don't care. Those in the first group need only be educated. Those in the second group are the ones that any knifemaker should be concerned about, and in my opinion avoid.

I had to smile when I read
I'm beginning to see why many custom makers build collectibles...
. That's not a safety net either..... a number of years ago, there was a "trust fund baby" who started ordering/buying high end customs from some of the top makers.... one Ivory/Mosaic bowies was returned to the maker with a broken tip.....from the individual using it as a "throwing knife". Another was returned to the maker because the individual used a "rock" grinding wheel in an attempt to "clean off" the damascus pattern. And I personally had an Mosaic/Ivory "Fighter" returned from the individual with a chewed up blade, where he had tried to "install" serrations with a chainsaw file!. In all cases, the individual demanded refunds.

I can't speak for how things turned out for the other makers, but in my case, I first offered to repair it as best I could. When he rejected that, I offered a refund, minus the cost of materials. When he rejected that, I packaged up the knife "as is", and shipped it back to him, with a written statement of what I had offered, along with his rejections, and a printed copy of my warranty, with the section about alterations/modifications highlighted, not being covered under warranty. About a month later this same individual called me, TELLING ME (not asking or requesting) that I was going to build him a 10" Mosaic Damascus Bowie, and that he was going to deliver me a 1946 Willys jeep as payment. All I could think was "This guy is off his rocker!" Thank goodness that these types are a very small percentage.....but it's the reason I warn others when those "red flag" things come up...... this is the kind of stuff you simply can't make up! :)

The moral of the story is... The majority of knife buyers are fantastic people...... but for those who are not..... DO NOT let your desire to sell a knife override your common sense. If alarms go off in your head, or something points to a "red flag".. heed the warning! Otherwise it could become a case of endless grief that you create for yourself.
 
Lol...well said John!

I do think that it is possible to generate income here without scampering to China.

I think the lesson bleeding through here is to be true to yourself....your skill sets, your artistry, your style. Ditching all that for a request that will net you $50 isn't worth it. Though if you get a reputation as a prima donna...that's probably not good either. A gracious explanation of why you cannot make a knife should probably be thought out in advance for cases like this.

And who knows...you might turn a roughneck into a knife lover....
 
Ed...I had hoped the collectable market was peopled by genteel individuals with a high regard for craftsmanship and the funds to obtain fine work:35:...Apparently I am mistaken...lol.

I should not have been surprised...after running a small rural market for 7 years I have ceased to be amazed by the clueless and abusive remarks by some of the wealthiest citizens....:les:

That does not mean that all wealthy people are abusive...just that you cannot judge the book by the cover. You point of reading the individual is well taken....

My "new" shop is 1/2 of the old store and it is mighty quiet in here....but I haven't started selling knives yet either...Lol.:lol:
 
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My post really stirred up some emotions and informative "horror" stories. The fact is I had no intention of trying to make this kind of knife for this guy but appreciate the replies that reinforced my need to not try to please someone's request if I don't feel comfortable about it. The funny thing is he kept calling and wanted me to bring some of my knives down to this gun store where he worked for him and coworkers to look at . And he actually bought a nice little Damascus skinner. But he was still talking about this "Monster Knife" and said he was ok if it didn't cut through a chain link like the one he saw on You tube.:what!: I am just a hobby knife maker who sells some knives when I can. I got accepted into the Miss. Craftsmens Guild two years ago and mostly sell my knives at their craft shows now and word of mouth. I can't remember since 2009 when I started selling a few having anything but very nice appreciative buyers. I have been getting some orders from some repeat customers that have all been wonderful to work with. I enjoy making a knife that I can sit down and hold and admire it myself because I put my best efforts and skill in it and then like to see someone walk off with it smiling. A part of me will be left behind when I am gone one day.
 
So, I don't normally read all the comments on each posting but I had to with this one. I was cracking up with some of the stories that you all have thrown out there and know that I'll eventually end up with a few myself. To date I've been pretty lucky overall. The point of "Right tool for the job" and "A knife is a cutting tool" is so true. Most of the time my customers tell me "It's too nice to use" or "I don't want to ruin it" and I think back about all the amazing knives I see on here and laugh. My stuff is mediocre in comparison to the beauty, but it is a nice compliment.

I've been using a CPM-3V as my "high end steel" for survival and heavy use knives. I've seen a lot of abuse testing videos and stress tests on them to where I'm at least somewhat confident that it'll hold up to "some abuse" but then again....nothing is indestructible. I still tell people that it's still a cutting tool and not made to be beaten all to hell. I've made one for myself and plan on doing my own stress testing on.

In any case....LOVE the stories and input from experienced makers.
 
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