Advice Needed - Brand new shop/tools.

caseyfulp

Member
Hello all,

I will be starting a new shop on my property in Floyd, VA. I have two possible locations... a shed near the house (10x20 with power) and a barn a bit further way (16x16 2 story without power - but can be run). I'll ask, but I'm assuming I'm better off just starting in the shed and then if I need to run power and move into more space I can. I basically just wanted to go over some gear though.

I've done a ton of research and tried to fit everything I could into my budget range for this startup. I have a lot of the basic hand tools around the house, but I've been looking at low end machinery. I'll list some items and hopefully you all have some input.

Grizzly H8192 - 1x42 w/ 8 in Disc
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Grizzly-...0125&wl11=online&wl12=191456367&wl13=&veh=sem

Klutch Horizontal/Vertical Metal Cutting Bandsaw - 4.5x6
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200659143_200659143

Ironton 8 in Benchmount Drill Press
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200659137_200659137

Now, I get it... spend more get more. I am just hoping to stay within my budget and optimize time. Once I reach the point of selling, profits will go toward a 2x72 NWG or something similar. I already have the angle grinder, bench grinder, hacksaw, files, etc.

Thanks for your input!
 
these are just my opinions, and others will probably disagree.

You can make knives with the equipment you are describing, but if you get serious about making knives you are going to want to upgrade. It can be painfully expensive starting up. If you already have all this equipment, then of course use what you have. But I highly recommend you don't go out and buy any of that if you don't already own it. It will be money down the drain as you replace it, and you will replace it.

Add a good vise to your list. You will use a vise in more ways than you can count. A grizzly 5-inch rotating swivel vise can be had for about $70, and cheaper on sale. Lowes has them for $50 on sale now and then.

The grinder is the king of the shop. Beg, borrow, and scrimp wherever you can to get the best grinder you can. This isn't some tool snob talking- A good grinder is the difference between turning out good knives efficiently versus fighting the process tooth and nail until it's complete. A 1x42 can get you started, don't get me wrong. But you may have to fight hard to get good work off it. You can get by with used, nearly worn out junk machinery in almost every other area to get yourself going, but get a good grinder. I'll say it again- get a good grinder.

The bandsaw is fine.

IF that 8in drill press is anything like the Harbor Freight 8 inch drill press, it is woefully underpowered. Almost any 10" drill press will run circles around it. When it comes to drill presses you want two things: stiffness and horsepower. I either saw a thread or a YouTube video where someone solved the stiffness issue by putting a bottle jack under the work table. Stiffness is very important. You'll go to put your knife together and won't know why your pins don't line up and your handle scales have gaps between the scales and the tang of the knife. That's often due to flex in your drill press, assuming your scales were flat to begin with. You can get by with almost any drill press to start, but eventually a good drill press is the next most important thing after a good grinder.

Space-wise, it doesn't take a ton of room to make knives assuming you are stock removing. You could turn out good knives in a long hallway. If you are efficient about your use of space, a single car garage is enough. How you lay it out makes a big difference and that can be a simple as a clean bench and a dirty bench. All your grinding, sanding, etc happens on the dirty bench. You need a clean bench, preferably as far from the dirty bench as you can put it, where you do everything else like handle glue ups, making sheaths, and the gazillions of things you use a workbench for that you don't want covered in grit and steel dust.
 
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these are just my opinions, and others will probably disagree.

All opinions matter as far as I'm concerned.

I totally understand the push for the 2x72 grinder. I really do. I've watched all the videos I possibly could over the past week and I see the major upside of the larger belt, motor, adjustments, attachments, etc. For right now, in my mind, the 1x42 gets my foot in the door. Sometimes you have to experience the bad to appreciate the good. I also get that it's money down the drain. If I buy the big grinder, I won't have much... if any at all... leftover to get anything else. What I'm looking to do within my budget is purchase the necessary items to spend a day unpacking boxes and setting things up and be ready to start making a knife. Am I completely off my rocker seeing it that way? If so, I won't be mad if you say so. Haha. Oh and with those items, plus belts, etc. I will be sitting at under $1000 invested. I have 2 other sources of income, one being disability, and don't have to rely on the knife making for income. That being said, I can dump any and all profits into machinery as soon as enough is profited.

Oh, and I have a number of vises. Thank you for bringing that up though!
 
I'm glad you took my advice as I intended it- just friendly feedback. awesome knives are made with files. don't let anything stop you. I'm only saying it's painful to spend money twice if you can save longer and spend it once.

If nothing else, think about a 2x42 instead of a 1x. That narrow belt will cut trenches in your blade real quick.


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Thought about that too. I've looked at 2x42 and 2x48. I either find them with @@@@ reviews, a $200 increase in price, or no disc sander. I'd really like to the disc sander.
 
The grinder is the king of the shop. Beg, borrow, and scrimp wherever you can to get the best grinder you can. This isn't some tool snob talking- A good grinder is the difference between turning out good knives efficiently versus fighting the process tooth and nail until it's complete. A 1x42 can get you started, don't get me wrong. But you may have to fight hard to get good work off it. You can get by with used, nearly worn out junk machinery in almost every other area to get yourself going, but get a good grinder. I'll say it again- get a good grinder.

^^ DITTO ^^

Don't get too excited about the combination belt and disc grinders/sanders...... truth be told, they don't do either job particularly well, and are built for LIGHT DUTY WOODWORKING....not for metal/steel. From your last post, I suspect your looking at things on Amazon? If so, don't! There are a very few tools on Amazon, related to/designed for knifemaking. You're far better off to ask folks on the forums. You may not always like what you hear, but it will be straight forward and honest feedback from people who use and know knifemaking machinery/tools.
 
Ok! Well then consider this me asking. Haha. If I'm looking to invest around $1000 into this to start off with, outside of what I already have, where do I get started? Is it solely the belt grinder? I feel like just cutting the flat stock down with a hack saw or angle grinder would get annoying after the first blade. I still have it stuck in my mind that I'd rather be able to do some things slowly than do one thing faster and the other things much more painstakingly.
 
I'm new too but I spent the big cash up front on a grinder and a mill. Mostly because I could afford to but also because after a lifetime of using tools and machinery, I've found that good tools pay dividends in their usefulness and the time and effort they save. Basically, good tools cost a lot because they're worth it. Plus the guys that have been doing this a while HIGHLY recommended it.

I shelled out ~$3500 for my grinder but if I needed to I could sell it on the secondary market and get a good deal of my money back.

BUT I totally understand where you're coming from. Do what you have to do to get started.

That bandsaw looks very similar to the Harbor Freight model. If you get that one, first thing is crack open the gear box and clean it out and replace the oil with some quality gear oil and make a new gasket. They're made in China and kind of junk. They can be made to work OK but there's a lot of adjusting and tweaking necessary.
 
Have you made a knife at all yet? If not, you might consider just making one with hand tools first. I did, as did a lot of us and it's extremely cheap to try it that way. I've got a video or two on my YouTube channel that might show you how that goes. The bandsaw is the same one Harbor Freight sells and they are decent tools with a little tweaking (I've got 2 of them). You could use a 20% off coupon at HF and get it for less than $200. But, if you're on a serious budget crunch, skip the bandsaw for now. You can do just about anything you need to do for knife making with an angle grinder and a cut off disc for a whole lot less. Focus on a 2x72 grinder and a drill press. That little Grizzly grinder is going to cost you close to $300 by the time it's shipped, but guess what, I built a 2x72 for about $300. Granted, I'm a good scrounger and fabricator for the most part, but even a NWG shouldn't cost you much more than that. So, my advice is to make a few knives with hand tools, files, a filing jig, angle grinder, etc. first. At the same time, start saving and scrounging to get or build a 2x72.
 
Anthony,

I was trying to avoid this part of it all, but I will delve into it. My stepfather is a Green Beret, and will soon retire from the medical field. I live on family owned land and he and my Mom will soon retire to there. I am in the process of designing and hand building my own home on the same land that we hand built their retirement home. We are all about a labor of love, and something to take pride in. I followed in my stepfather's footsteps and joined the Army as a Special Forces Candidate in 2006 (18X Contract) and was medically retired in 2010. Three weeks later I hiked the Appalachian Trail simply because it was something he said he has always wanted to do. A quick Google search of "Casey Fulp Appalachian Trail" can give you more background than I desire to type.

He is older now, and I have always dreamed of pursuing something that he and I could do together when time permitted. That time is nearing, and he is ready and willing. That being said, he can't sit on an angle grinder or hacksaw for as long as he once could. I am fully capable, but this about the two of us. I want to setup a shop that both he and I can use and have fun in. Trust me, I fully get it... and even presented to him... the idea of a 2x72. But, for now, I am trying to create an environment to continue a passion in.

He and I both love blades. Truth be told... from his experience in the US Army Special Forces during the 70s-90s... he has probably seen a lot of blades. There are a few he has already brought up that he wants to recreate. I am all for it. What I am looking for is the best possible setup that I can surprise him with.

You all keep saying the 2x72. I get that it's the best grinder. I'm looking for the most amount of fun I can have with my stepfather. I guess maybe I should change directions and drop the budget on a 2x72.
 
Casey, start with whatever makes you happy and gets you going. But I do want to clear something up. I get the feeling that you see the 2x72 suggestion as a bunch of guys telling you to buy a Cadillac when you've stated that you are on a Kia budget. That's not what is happening. Everyone is trying to save you pain. Making knives on a 1x42 is the equivalent of telling people you plan to hike the Appalachian Trail in a pair of slick bottom church shoes that are one size too small and other hikers telling you that you really ought to get some decent boots that fit.

If you decide to start now with a small grinder then plan to use the grinder to hog off metal but the finish work will be done with files. It's pretty amazing how much metal you can move with a good file. If you get the steel somewhat ground, draw filing the bevels flat will give you a good knife. You're going to want to get as close to final dimensions as you can before heat treat, because you won't be draw filing afterwards.

I wish you and your Dad the best. Making knives can be a lot of fun, but it's very frustrating at first. Neither of you need any help in the determination department, so just keep working it and enjoy the process.
 
John says it very well. Especially the part about "trying to save you pain". I went down the same road when I first started knifemaking..... tried to use a totally inadequate grinder, and struggled along terribly until I could save up to purchase my first "real" grinder (a 2x72" Wilton Square Wheel). Truth be told, I kept trying to "get by" and actually saved and purchased 3 different grinders before I managed the Square Wheel. By the time I got the Square Wheel, I had spent enough on the other three to have purchased TWO Square Wheel machines! A hard lesson learned, and what we're just trying to help you avoid. :) The catch was/is that the money I spent on the 3 inferior machines was money wasted.... there's just no resale value at all, in any of them. If I remember correctly, one went to the junkyard, and the other two were given away over time. At that point in time, there were very few grinders commercially available, so I basically had a choice between the Wilton machine, and an original Bader machine. Just to give you an idea of how long ago that was, I saved for 3 years for the Wilton, and at that time paid a whopping $530.00 for a brand new one. :) I still own/use that machine.... and it's pushing 30 years old!

Things have come a long way since then.... many more options out there. As long as you stick with one of the "top" brands/models, you'll not only be glad you did it, but IF there ever comes a point in time when you decide to sell it, the value will be nearly what you paid for it. Besides the old wilton machine, I have two other 2x72 grinders in the shop, and simply can't imagine knifemaking without any of them.

In the end, you're obviously going to have to do what's right for you, we're just trying to let you know that buying a low end, undersized/under-powered grinder for knifemaking it's akin to trying to Ice Skate uphill. :)
 
Wow Casey, just read your story. We have a celebrity among us! What an accomplishment and very cool adventure. I really like the idea of you two starting and enjoying a hobby together. One of the hard things when you're a new knife maker is not having someone to talk about it to. Your wife will get sick of it really fast! So pairing up will really give you guys a lot to bond over. So, back to tools, my recommendation of the angle grinder vs. small bandsaw still has merit though. These little bandsaws will cutout knife blanks, but they are painfully slow. I think I can probably rough out a blank just as fast with a thin cutoff wheel on an angle grinder. I was just trying to point out how you could shift part of your budget towards more important purchases. On grinders, yes you can make a knife on the little ones. My brother has made 2 pocket knives on a 1x30 and they came out great, but after the second one he said he was done with knife making until he gets a 2x72. He got very frustrated working on it. One of the big problems with the little guys is belt selection and prices. You just can't find the variety or deals on the smaller ones. If you could pick up one of these little grinders on craigslist or at a auction for $75 or even $100 it would be worth trying. I think we all just hate to see people spend on the money on something that in the end will have to be replaced anyway.
 
Two truths from my days as a machinist that have stuck with me ever since...

"Buy once, cry once." Ed's post above illustrates this one perfectly.

"If you borrow something three times, it is time to buy your own." In our shop, we had no issues loaning the new guy a tool on occasion, it saves them from having to buy a ton of stuff right off the bad and gives them a way to prioritize what actually needs to be bought.
 
Don't rule out craigslist, ebay, and other classifieds and auction sites. You may not find the best deal right away, but they are there. I bought my first porta-band from a seller on craigslist for $40 or so, and it's still going strong as one of the most used tools in my shop a few years later. Last year, I found an industrial grade wellsaw vertical/horizontal about a mile down the road from me for $250 (seller had listed it for $450 originally, and brand new they are much more).

There are more options then there ever were for building your own 2x72, and $500 to $600 can get you a decent machine last I checked. Some guys do it for more, and some for less, but it all depends on what you're building and what you have available. Look at the NWGS, or the models from Polar Bear Forge (particularly the SLING kits). OregonBladeMaker on eBay has some good stuff as well.

Now, a homebuilt machine will be leaps and bounds above a 1x42, 2x42, 1x30, or other "big box store" special (assuming you do your due diligence during the building process), but it's still not going to be a Cadillac. I think a properly built (and perhaps slightly modified) NWGS can do anything an out of the box KMG can do, but is it going to be as good as a Tw-90 or a TAG-101? No. It's still a REALLY good option though, IMO. YMMV.
 
Well, most everyone pushed me in the direction of the 2x72. After a recent visit to a local knife maker, I decided that that was the way to go. I priced some different builds, and had pages upon pages of notes... so I decided to make a spreadsheet. First and foremost, so that everyone understands (apparently this was ignored on another forum and everyone started chambering rounds to shell me like a wounded duck)... I will not be going out tomorrow and purchasing all of the equipment. I wanted to see what it would take to set up this shop right the first time around, for the most part. I also wanted to see what it would cost for materials, safety equipment, hand tools, etc. So, this spreadsheet covers all of that. It is NOT 100% complete. Again, the whole purpose is to have the right mindset going into this from a financial perspective. You can view the different tabs that feed the data formulas to the overview. They will be listed at the top or bottom of the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pIF1FBWAjPGUObzO6VR8CAg3YLXa4J6L5jDPIG9uUDQ/edit?usp=sharing

My stepfather and I will be pulling the old Mark V ShopSmith out and will be using the 12" disc sander and drill press on the ShopSmith. I still need to add 12" discs to the sheet. There are probably more things as well. Again, the whole intent of posting this is to receive feedback for the items on the spreadsheet. I will ignore off-topic responses that have already been addressed. I am not here to discuss whether or not knife making is right for me. I know where my heart is at this point in my life. I will be giving this a try with hand files over the next month or two at least. If it isn't for me, I don't have to pull the trigger on the setup. I just want to mentally prepare myself from a financial responsibility standpoint.

Thanks again for your input.
 
Well, most everyone pushed me in the direction of the 2x72. After a recent visit to a local knife maker, I decided that that was the way to go. I priced some different builds, and had pages upon pages of notes... so I decided to make a spreadsheet. First and foremost, so that everyone understands (apparently this was ignored on another forum and everyone started chambering rounds to shell me like a wounded duck)... I will not be going out tomorrow and purchasing all of the equipment. I wanted to see what it would take to set up this shop right the first time around, for the most part. I also wanted to see what it would cost for materials, safety equipment, hand tools, etc. So, this spreadsheet covers all of that. It is NOT 100% complete. Again, the whole purpose is to have the right mindset going into this from a financial perspective. You can view the different tabs that feed the data formulas to the overview. They will be listed at the top or bottom of the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pIF1FBWAjPGUObzO6VR8CAg3YLXa4J6L5jDPIG9uUDQ/edit?usp=sharing

My stepfather and I will be pulling the old Mark V ShopSmith out and will be using the 12" disc sander and drill press on the ShopSmith. I still need to add 12" discs to the sheet. There are probably more things as well. Again, the whole intent of posting this is to receive feedback for the items on the spreadsheet. I will ignore off-topic responses that have already been addressed. I am not here to discuss whether or not knife making is right for me. I know where my heart is at this point in my life. I will be giving this a try with hand files over the next month or two at least. If it isn't for me, I don't have to pull the trigger on the setup. I just want to mentally prepare myself from a financial responsibility standpoint.

Thanks again for your input.

Not sure I'm reading your SS correctly, but for the future needs on the bandsaw I'd want one that was capable of cutting metal as well as wood.

Something like this Jet is about the minimum entry level bandsaw IMO and it will probably need some upgrades.

https://www.jettoolstore.com/produc...dSngJ0TNfdWcD6AAaDOHpsGNPVIQHh1kGsaApED8P8HAQ


Also choosing what you need versus want/price can get endless, but if you don't already have a drill press you could consider a small mill/drill instead of buying a new drill press. They are usually decent as a drill press and would give you basic milling capabilities. Grizzly makes a range of them with varying prices.

http://www.grizzly.com//milling-machines
 
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If you click on the link to the bandsaw, it actually is for metal. It's meant for light duty, it was cheaper than buying the porta-band and Swag table. Much cheaper. As far as the drill press, I planned to use the drill press and disc sander on the Mark V ShopSmith. Would that suffice?
 
Harbor Freight has cheap tools and most are less than what you want but some of their tools are a bargain.


These http://www.harborfreight.com/horizontal-vertical-metal-cutting-bandsaw-93762.html are probably in every other knife makers shop for a reason. Good price, it's a simple tool and they work good enough. You will need to replace the cheap sheet metal table for vertical operations with some 3/8" or 1/2" plate and possibly the support arm for this. The rest of the saw is fairly solid and low tech enough that it will get you started. In the vertical position, you sit on it like a horse and saddle.
 
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