Help with Handle

I enjoy reading all of the good information here and have learned an awful lot from you all. As a new knife maker, I very much enjoy my new hobby but have run into a roadblock that is giving me a fit. My scales separate from the tang and I have run out of solutions. Have tried:
  • several epoxy's (now use West Systems) and measure ratio with kitchen scale
  • Micarta liner on wood and plain walnut scales (roughed up and cleaned with Acetone)
  • Flatten scales on scrap granite with sandpaper glued to it.
  • Roughed up tang AND hollowed out areas for epoxy to sit.
  • Tried clamping hard and more recently just spring clips so epoxy doesn't squeeze out.
  • Cleaned tang (after roughing with 36 grit) with soap and water AND Acetone.
  • Clamp for full 24 hours before sanding/shaping
  • Temp in my garage is 75'ish. I thought the extreme temps of summer and winter may have made the epoxy weak.
  • I must give credit where it is due....Most all of these suggestions above came from Ed Caffrey who has helped a lot! Didn't want to wear out my welcome.
I will say, when i drill the 3/16 pin holes the pins are very hard to get in. Because they are so tight i have found that sometimes the scales bind a little which would definitely put outward pressure on the scales. When that happened, I used the next bit larger to "loosen" it up a bit. Still came apart.
I really enjoy time working on these knives after a stressful day at work....and....like nothing more than giving a friend an oyster or hunting knife. Thank you all for any suggestions you may have!
 
Try sanding your handle pin material down. I place a piece of 220 grit sandpaper in my vise and twist it with even pressure until the pin goes into the drilled holes with only light taps from a hammer.IMG_20160929_190441439.jpgI do not use Acetone until after glue up because on the can it states that it thins epoxy. I do not know if that is your problem but you might look at it. Brake cleaner is what I use before glue up.
 
I have heard Acetone can leave a residue or something I have been using Denatured Alcohol. Also you can chuck some pin stock in your cordless drill and some sand paper in the other hand thin the pin size down fast.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
When you say the seperate when is that and where, after clamps are removed, after handle shaping?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
Thanks guys. Good call on thinning the pins down.
They separate after shaping....has happened various places. It sounds like the scales aren't flat but they are definitely flat by hand on the granite slab. I am thinking the thinning of pins will help as they were very tight and lots of pressure on scales. Have you had this issue?
 
Some thoughts.

I think you need to get the correct 3 degree tapered reamer and peen the pins. You don't need to use epoxy then. Run the reamer in the scales and then when you peen the pins it pushes the scales into the tang. I like to epoxy on hidden tangs but for scales it is always ream and peen. That or corby rivets.

As a side note. I have tried to flat sand by hand..... I just can't do it. I end up getting it flat on the platen then truing it up after it is assembled.
 
From what I can see in theory your scales should hold with the epoxy.
Did your scales get too warm while shaping the handle?
I know some if not most epoxies will release at around 180°f.
I have started to peen my pins also to keep things in place incase my epoxy fails.
 
No problems yet with scales coming off the tang yet. But I have not made many knives.

Justin do you get any mooning around the pins and scales when you use the drill? I have always been worried that I would take to much off the pins and ruin the clean look of the handle. Ty
 
Bossdog sells Corby and similar bolts in his store, they work well. what are you drilling with? for best results i would use a drill press and screw length(short) drill bits. for 3/16" pins, I would use a #10 or a 5mm drill bit in the scales, this would give you a scale hole about 0.01" bigger than the pin. I would also measure the pins to find exact diameter.
 
Another possibility is the wood itself. It should be dried to about 6% moisture content. But even kiln dried wood can pick up moisture from the atmosphere. Have you tried stabilized wood?
 
No problems yet with scales coming off the tang yet. But I have not made many knives.

Justin do you get any mooning around the pins and scales when you use the drill? I have always been worried that I would take to much off the pins and ruin the clean look of the handle. Ty
No I do not. Like said above what I typically do is use a bigger bit for my pins. If I use 1/8" pins I use a #30 or #31 size drill bit..i would have to check for sure. This makes putting the pins in so much easier and eliminates glue up panock when you can get one to fit in and alows just enough epoxy to go around the pin, you cant even notice any shadowing or dark circle around the pins.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
I dont know if you said or not but are you counter sinking your holes in the tang and making sure you tang is dead flat? Conter sinking the tang holes takes all the burrs or any deforming around the holes out and makes it much easier to get flat.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
Justin is giving some good advice here.

I am probably the odd man out here but I don't use acetone for anything. If you have a CLEAN piece of bright steel and wipe acetone on it, you can see some sort of a rainbow film that won't go away on it's own. I don't know what that film is but it has caused me issues with etching blades in the past. Denatured alcohol removes that film and does seem to completely evaporate on its own.

Also, use a #11 drill bit to drill 3/16" pin holes. If your pins are binding in your scale material, that's not good.

Other than that, you should be doing okay from what I can tell. Proper surface prep, quality epoxy and sound procedure are most of the battle with gluing scales and it sounds like you have those three things covered.
 
John hit a subject that many newer makers don't think about/realize..... pin size, and the appropriate size drill bits for them. As an example, a 1/8" pin will not fit into a 1/8" hole.... both are .125" in diameter. So you need a drill size that's SLIGHTLY bigger then the pins you intend to use.

In my shop, I use the following:
PIN SIZE.................... Drill BIT SIZE
1/16" (.0625") ............................#52 (.0635")
3/32" (..0938")............................#41 (..0960")
1/8" (.125")................................#30 (.1285")
3/16" (.1875").............................#12 (.1890")
1/4" (.250").................................F (.2570") (lettered bit)

Of course those bit sizes can be tailored up/down to each individual's liking....but those are the sizes I use.

Something else that came to mind, that I've not mentioned to you..... the holes MIGHT not be "straight" throughout the slab/tang/slab path. Depending on the type of material, small drill bits will often bow as the are drilling....creating a slightly curved hole (at least in comparison the the pin stock being used). The way to fix or get around this is.... AFTER you already have all the holes in the slabs/tang, put a pin in two of the holes....then, any "open" holes (those without pins), drill through everything at once, with the same size bit you used to fit the pins.....often you will "feel" a slight "grab" at the bit "reams" the hole true. Then just switch out a pin, and do the same to the next hole, and so on until you have them all "reamed". This is one of the reason I always use more then two pins in any handle..... it always gives me two points of alignment, should I have a hole that isn't fully true, and I need to ream it out for the best fit.

Many times the difference between a "good" fit, and a "sloppy" one, is just a matter of fractions of a thousandth of an inch. :)
 
Last edited:
No I do not. Like said above what I typically do is use a bigger bit for my pins. If I use 1/8" pins I use a #30 or #31 size drill bit..i would have to check for sure. This makes putting the pins in so much easier and eliminates glue up panock when you can get one to fit in and alows just enough epoxy to go around the pin, you cant even notice any shadowing or dark circle around the pins.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Thanks for the response Justin. I'll stop hijacking the thread and go buy some new drill bits to try out. Ty
 
another trick I learned: I use a reamer.

For example: on 1/4" pins, sometimes an F drill is a tad too large and I can see epoxy around the pin when it's done. This seems to be dependent on handle material and the fact that I use a drill press and not a mill to drill my holes. I'm sure what's actually happening in my case is that my drill press runout makes my holes larger than they should be. So, in effect, I'm intentionally undersizing and the wobble brings the hole up to size.

I started using a 7/32 or 15/64 to drill the hole, then follow up with a 1/4" reamer. I end up with a very nice, slip fit of the pin through the handle material.

On the blade blank itself, I use an F for the pin hole and then chamfer the hole with a countersink.
 
All good info, thanks guys. I have tried stabilized wood. Starting to think I'm getting it too hot while shaping. Have an inexpensive belt sander from Harbor Freight. Try to get basic shop with 50 grit then 80.
Saw a good video on loveless bolts....you guys prefer those over corby?
 
Also ordering new drill bits now! I have been using 3/16 bit for 3/16 pins and fighting with them, epoxy flying, etc. like most things...its a process.
 
Another helpful tid bit Ed posted either here or in another thread is skip the cheap bits. The Kobalt ones from Lowes are an ok cheap set till you accidentally drill into a ht and tempered AEB-L blank then all of a sudden it doesn't work anymore. I speak from experience the wife got me a bench top drill press an bits for my B day and I wiped out the tip of my 1/8" bit enlarging the hole in the scales to allow me to peen the pins.
Ed where is a good place to get good quality bits?
 
Back
Top