Comparing damascus

Black cat

Well-Known Member
I will be attempting damascus as some time in the near future and have a quick question.

It seems from my research combinations of 1084, 1075, 1095 and so on with something like 15N20 are the most popular.

Most talk about the steels forgability and contrast... I can't find a whole lot on performance. Could someone give me the rundown?

For example how would 1095/1520 compare to plain 1095 for durability, hardness, toughness, edge retention and so on?

Ease of forging aside... What steel combinations would give the best all around performance and contrast... And will it out perform or under perform against a non pattern welded steel like 1095, 80crv2, L6, O1 especially in large camp blades, axes and swords... Boy that was a mouthful lol :p
 
There are many "ifs" in the answer to your question(s).... but I'll try to sum it up by saying....

IF..... The individual creating the damascus is competent (knows what they are doing), the resulting damascus will be no better, or no worse them the individual alloys it is produced from.

There's a big reason that you see the majority of ABS smiths using the 1084 or 1080 and 15N20 combination..... it's likely the most "compatible" combination of alloys out there when it comes to forge welding/forging.

When I say "compatibility", I'm referring to the overall characteristics of the chosen materials. Probably the most important aspect of choosing alloy for damascus is understanding that each alloy has a given expansion and contraction property when heated or cooled. If you choose alloys for damascus that have widely different expansion and contraction characteristics, you're usually doomed before you even begin. Choosing alloys that have closely matched expansion/contraction characteristics (such as 1080/15N20) makes you life much nicer.

Performance depends on so much more then the alloys..... (although they are an important aspect) to say one combination or another are going to be a superior performer is simply impossible.
 
Listen to Ed - he knows his stuff. On how does Damascus perform compared to a single alloy steel? Consider there are NO damascus blades in the cutting competitions (that I'm aware of anyway) where performance is serious stuff.

I think most folks agree Damascus is chosen for the "eye appeal" rather than performance aspect.

Ken H>
 
Last edited:
That makes sense so far... But lets say that in a perfect world where the individual knows what they are doing with the process. Lets say 1084/15N20... Which is likely the the dominant alloy once forged together? I'm basically wondering if the alloy added for contrast more nickel reduces or enhances the natural properties of the 1084 or what have you. Or does it have little effect in that way of done correctly? If that makes sense. I have read that some combinations "mix" more than others...
 
15N20 is really one of the best choices for both contrast (it contians 1.5% nickel), and for edge retention/cutting ability because it's basically nothing more then 1075 steel, with the addition of 1.5% nickel..... making it both an enhancement in contrast, and since it's fully hardenable, it's essentially like welding 1080 to 1080 from the standpoint of performance. I'm sure eventually there will be another alloy that will be an improvement over 15N20 for creating damascus, but as of right now it's the one alloy out there that for the most part allows a Bladesmith to have his cake, and eat it too in terms of both eye appeal and performance. :)
 
I would like to ask Ed a question if I may , are there any guidelines as to material thickness in the weld stack or does it depend on the desired pattern.
 
Hi Fred!

It really all depends on the desired pattern. I think each maker has there "go to" arrangement in material thickness and how it's stacked/situated. Personally, my philosophy is that I want to get the maximum number of layers built up, with the least amount (times) exposing the billet(s) to the heat. I base the size (length and width) of my materials on my equipment. My press has flat dies that are 8" long..... so the pieces I stack up are 8" long. What I start out with when building a damascus billet is 1/8" thick 1080, 1 1/2" wide X 8" long. For the 15N20, it's .050-.070" thick X 1 1/2" wide X 8" long. The very basic recipe is to just stack one layer of 1080 or 1084 to one layer of 15N20, and build the billet in that manner.
Nickel alloy materials are compression resistant, meaning that they simply will not "squash" or "thin out" at the same rate that a non-nickel alloy will....that's why I use thicker 1080 or 1084 and thinner 15N20 ..... generally by the time I get to 300 layers of so, all of the layers are basically the same thickness. Commonly, I will start off with a stack of 40-50 layers..... but my equipment is large enough to handle that..... I think when it comes to the size billet a person can start with.... the capacity of your equipment is the limiting factor. If I had the muscle to handle it, a forge large enough to heat it, and a press or hammer that would handle it, I'd go to 100 layers in a starting billet. :)

Beyond the basic recipe of stacking "one to one", I always encourage folks to think outside the box when stacking up billets.... many times I will double or triple up on layers of 1080 or 15N20 when stacking up a billet....depending on how I want the light/dark contrast to appear in the finished piece. There are times when I will do one a full 1/3 to 1/2 of a billet in a single material, and stack the remainder in a 1 to 1, 2 to 1, or even a 3 to 1.... it just all depends on what I'm looking for in th end.

There are just so many possibilities.....just don't be afraid to think outside "the box". Sorry, I got off subject...... As long as the forging technique is good, and a person isn't wrecking steel, I think it's best to go with thicknesses that will allow you achieve the most layers, with the least amount of exposures to the heat of the forge as possible.

Since I've gone that far, I might as well also share what I consider some other important "procedures" when it comes to building billets. When it comes to building the initial billet, I use an old milling vise, and clamp the stack as tightly as possible. I then use a MIG welder and run at least three beads/welds across each "edge" of the stack.... one near the front, one near the middle, and one near the back (or handle end). DO NOT weld the ends of the stack....if you do, it increases the risk of trapping flux/slag inside the billet, and increases the chances of inclusions and/or "cold shuts".

I always forge the initial billet out as long as possible.... for a 40-50 layer stack, that often gives me a billet of 4-5 feet long. I allow that billet to cool a bit, and then using an angle grinder, clean off both sides of the billet. Here's the important part.... the scratch pattern that is produced by grinding with the angle grinder should go ACROSS the billet's face and be slightly "scarfed" (slightly higher in the middle/centerline of the billet) This lets any flux or slag escape out the edges when you restack and reweld. If you have grind lines running with the length of the billet, cold shuts and inclusions happen at a dramatically higher rate. After I grind both faces of the long billet/bar clean (the cleaner the better), I then measure, divide and mark the bar into equal lengths, and using a chop saw, cut, and then restack for the second (which is usually the final time for me) weld.

Sorry, I got long winded, but thought it might help someone. :)
 
Thank Ed , as always the best info. I ordered some material the other day and now on the hunt for a press , at 66 I'm to old to try arm power for this.
 
:) That reminds me of when I first had a power hammer....and then a press. I used to take guff from others who thought that using a power hammer or a press wasn't traditional enough...... but I knew that the day would come when I wasn't able to swing a hand hammer for 8-10 hours a day...... and I wanna keep doin what I do as long as I possibly can.

After a visit to a 16th century German castle, where I saw a 1,500lb water powered drop hammer in the smithy, I realized that if those folks, in that time had access to power hammers or presses.....they sure would have been using them, and that the people who were giving me grief about not using "traditional" method/tools, were simply either not smart enough to understand that working smarter is the key...or where jealous that they didn't have a power hammer or a press. :)
 
Oh dear Lord- you just summed up every single blacksmith group on the internet, or at lest the ones I keep running into. Hey, if somebody wants to go pound of a piece of steel with a hammer for fun, then by all means- knock yourself out. But the same folks who find it anathema to use a belt grinder don't seem to mind taking a lunch break and going to McDonald's. I mean, if you're going to be the arbiter of "authentic" then move out into the woods off the grid, grow everything you eat, and suffer from bad water when the mosquitoes find your well. Or at least mine your own ore and make the steel.

I think if you could teleport any smith from 1850 and earlier to the modern day they'd fall on their face and sob, singing praises to Heaven above. And that's just when you show them sandpaper. The grinder and bandsaw might be a little too much to take in.
 
I think if you could teleport any smith from 1850 and earlier to the modern day they'd fall on their face and sob, singing praises to Heaven above. And that's just when you show them sandpaper. The grinder and bandsaw might be a little too much to take in.

John, I do think you are saying so true there - can you just imagine an 1850's smith being exposed to current tools in the way of 2X72 grinder, bandsaw, AND even the power hammers a small one man shop can have these days. Hey, maybe that would make a good movie {g}

Ken H>
 
Can you imagine? You'd have to keep throwing water on the poor guy to revive him every time you showed him something.

My grandparents went from riding in horse drawn wagons to seeing the space shuttle in one lifetime. Electricity in your house... INDOOR PLUMBING! Toilet paper!






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
John, what do you mean "Grandparents"??? My parents went from iron tired wagons to space shuttle. Mom wouldn't even get in a horse drawn wagon when my brother 'n I got a wagon for the horses, and it wasn't even iron tired. I was born in a house with no electric or running water. I can actually remember when we got running water in house, and can barely remember Dad bringing blocks of ice for icebox on porch. We got running water before most folks in because Dad was the "progressive" farmer in the area :)

Folks can talk about the "good old days" all they want, me - I'll take today's comforts!!

Ken H>
 
Folks can talk about the "good old days" all they want, me - I'll take today's comforts!!

Ken H>

Like Billy Joel says, "the good old days weren't always good."

I'm pretty attached to air conditioning, myself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I'll second the A/C. I went up to the panhandle a couple weeks ago after that tropical storm went thru. I have an rv in the woods and didn't have electric for three and a half days, no A/C, no well pump, no water. kind of like the old days I guess. it was pretty brutal if you ask me though.
so when I got home I bought my third generator, one for up there, one for the house, and one to back that one up.
 
i spent most of my life without A/C. Spent two years in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba without it. That felt like Hell, if Hell had 468% humidity and the sun was two inches above your head.

Can it be done? Sure. But never again as long as I have anything to say about it. I'd be hard pressed to choose between A/C and running water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Yep, it's sure HOT in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba country. We (wife 'n 2 daughters) have spent a few months in the Fla Keys and Bahamas on a sailboat with no AC a couple or 3 different times. I can remember the deck so hot you couldn't walk on it barefooted. The shade sure felt good - oh, and no fans to speak of either when anchored out because only power as battery power. Solar and wind generator helps, but not enough for fans AND refridge.

Ken H>
 
I sail, too! how cool.

people have no idea what it's like below decks on a boat in the tropics. you're one tough cookie, Ken. There are days when you seriously contemplate taking a chainsaw to the cabin to make some ventilation!

people laugh, but I'm serious when I say that in Florida, a bimini is often more important than sails!

I spent some time in the middle east. As a kid I used to wonder how Arabs could stand being all covered up like that in the heat. Well, then you go there and discover that under that kind of sun, shade is life. No amount of sweat is as bad as feeling your skin cook like bacon!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
When you go imagining how things were "back in the day" remember things may not have been as primitive as you think. A blacksmith from around 1850 probably would have at least heard of a power hammer. They go back to the early 12th century.

Doug
 
Back
Top