Comparing damascus

Oh yes Doug, I'm sure they had heard of power hammers, as you said they'd been around for a few hundred years. These power hammers were HUGE things, that's why I mentioned above about having a power hammer small enough to fit in the everyday blacksmith shop. That would have been amazing!

JOhn, you're right the bimini is a VERY important item on a boat, and when anchored out, we typically have an awning that covers the whole boat which really helps.... but - it still does get hot on those days when there's not a breath of air stirring. As long as the wind is blowing just a bit, it't normally not so bad. A wind scoop at the forward hatch allows the air to move nicely thru whole boat and out the aft. There are days I can remember pulling buckets of water up to wash deck down for a tad of additional cooling.

Living on a boat is a lot like riding a motorcycle for basic transportation: If you have to ask why, you'll never understand the answer. :) :35:

Ken H>
 
There was an implication made early on in this thread that damascus was only made for looks and was never used in cutting contests. This is patently untrue. First, every Master Smith candidate must complete a performance test with a 300 layer pattern-welded blade, ending with the bending of the blade without it delaminating or breaking. I have personally used my own damascus blades in cutting contests and they fared as well as any of my single steel blades. Unlike many makers, I carry and use my own blades, of which every one is damascus. I carried and used them on expeditions into the northern Amazon over 13 years. The keys to high performance damascus blades are using the proper combinations (addressed earlier in the thread) and simply knowing how to make the stuff. There are damascus makers on every corner these days, but only a few make really high quality steel.

Thanks,

Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS
 
"There are damascus makers on every corner these days, but only a few make really high quality steel."


Thanks Terry! It's good to know a properly made Damascus blade will perform well in cutting contests. Your comment above is likely the reason Damascus blades are not a majority winner in those contests. If only a few make good Damascus only a few would make blades suitable for competition....If I ever bought a Damascus blade or steel to play with I would do so from a master smith. I have wondered how the multitude of Damascus steel makers test their steel? Some of it is beyond beautiful and perhaps the knives built with it would never be expected to perform in rough usage. I suspect the high art knives made from Damascus are probably pretty good blades? When a guy has dialed in his craftsmanship to that degree his forging skills are probably up there too? I would pretty much trust the "Big Honkin' English Bowie" due to the care and beauty of the work...even if I hadn't know you were Master Smith.

the above brings up a question I have but am almost reluctant to ask....Do any Damascus blade makers every knowingly build a slightly less strong or functional blade in search of a more beautiful pattern? I get that when "art" becomes the goal over something to dig taters with....Form can take an acceptable slight lead over function. Just wondering though.

This entire thread was a hoot to read as it was educational (thanks Ed) and hilarious (thanks john...nearly shot coffee out my nose...) and meandered all over the place....
 
Last edited:
Do any Damascus blade makers every knowingly build a slightly less strong or functional blade in search of a more beautiful pattern? I get that when "art" becomes the goal over something to dig taters with....Form can take an acceptable slight lead over function. Just wondering though.

There's no doubt this is the case. EVERYTHING we do in Bladesmithing/Knifemaking has some sort of "trade-off". A couple of prime examples of giving up something in the "function" area to acquire more of the "art" would be those who make or use damascus that is created using a high carbon and pure nickel..... nickel will not harden, but it shows a brilliant contrast in the etched blade... it dosen't cut as well as an all high carbon mix, but it's eye appeal is increased.

The other is blades/knives that are heat colored or hot blued. The colors in those blades generally equates to the temper colors seen when heat treating a blade. If you see those bright to "sky" blue colors, it's a safe bet that the blade has been heated enough to soften it beyond it's optimal working hardness. Those are just a couple of examples...and there are certainly many others. Is it wrong to do that? I don't think so, it's simply a matter of choice....giving up one thing, to gain another. There are techniques that allow minimizing that "give-n-take" thing, but it's a very fine line, and frankly takes a lot of time and experience to learn/understand. It all boils down to the individual maker, and how they choose to do things.
 
I will readily state that I'm only a beginner at most, and most of the people on here have likely forgotten more than I know. That said, the opinion that I've sort of come to is that (at least in modern use, etc.), there are no significant performance advantages to a damascus blade. I believe that the perception that damascus is a superior blade steel originates from the skill level of the smith involved.
(I.E. it takes/took a better smith to make damascus, and then make a knife) I have always kinda figured that the "superiority" was more that the smiths making damascus in older times were more experienced/knowledgeable in blade shape/geometry, and in heat treating, thus it was really their skill as a smith that created superior blades, but the perception was that it was the steel.
Dunno, just my opinion, but I figured I'd throw it out there.
 
There was an implication made early on in this thread that damascus was only made for looks and was never used in cutting contests. This is patently untrue. First, every Master Smith candidate must complete a performance test with a 300 layer pattern-welded blade, ending with the bending of the blade without it delaminating or breaking. I have personally used my own damascus blades in cutting contests and they fared as well as any of my single steel blades. Unlike many makers, I carry and use my own blades, of which every one is damascus. I carried and used them on expeditions into the northern Amazon over 13 years. The keys to high performance damascus blades are using the proper combinations (addressed earlier in the thread) and simply knowing how to make the stuff. There are damascus makers on every corner these days, but only a few make really high quality steel.

Thanks,

Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS

Terry, thanks for this because this thread was initially started a long time ago and I will not be necroposting if I add to this part of topic now that you touched on it again. There has always been a lot of misunderstanding about the performance of Damascus, or even what Damascus is in many cases. Early on the material was touted as the fantastic steel of the ancient that could do things no modern steel could and this was just plain wrong and misleading. Especially since much of this was based upon the idea of using high and low carbon layers which, ironically produced a very poorly performing steel. Then the pendulum swung the other way and damascus started to get labeled as pretty but not serious in performance, which is equally erroneous.

I had done some serious studying of steel combinations, performance and properties of Damascus when the ABS cutting competitions were really taking off and I was approached to give it a try because the rumor going around was that nobody used damascus blades in cutting competitions because it would not perform as wells as single steels. I was determined to set the record straight on that and so I entered the competitions, and never used anything but Damascus just to prove a point. In my very first competition I was the first competitor to win a cutting competition with a damascus blade. I went on to that win until I made it to the world championships in Atlanta and never used anything but Damascus just to prove a point about the material. I was never that good at cutting but I knew the material could get me there with its performance.

Damascus is not a product, it is a process, and because of this, depending on a multitude of variables from steel selection to the makers skill level, there are some mixes that are bad, some that are good and some that are pretty impressive. I have found that the material is “different” than a single steel, whether those differences are better or worse is up to the individual, but they are there.

One needs to carefully choose the correct steels for compatibility and the properties desired. Combining steels that have radically different heat treatment requirements will invariably lead to compromises and a lesser end product. I have testing data to back up the observations that show some mixes can exceed the two parent steels in certain property gains, but there will be trade-offs. For example, my favorite mix of O-1/L6 will outperform most other mixes I have tested but it is ornery to weld up and work with, and not for the beginner or faint of heart, while W-2 or 1095 mixed with 15n20 will come in a close second without many of the same headaches.
By far the best combination for user friendliness, fool proof nature and performance along with pretty, is 1084/15n20. Totally compatible in the heat treat and forging this mix will also give you a beautiful contrast. It is what I use when I need to look like an expert for a demo. At home I weld up the O-1/L6 and deal with its issues to get the end performance I like, but in the end I get cutting advantages in certain materials as well as more homogenous hardness readings than I would get from either O-1 or L6 by themselves.

This is a very wide and complicated topic, and after spending most of my life studying it I can say that there are no clear “yes” or “no” answers regarding Damascus steel.
 
:oops:
Now the Master has spoken about the performance ability of Damascus, I do stand corrected on my much earlier post that Damascus was not used in cutting competitions. I am NOT an expert in that field by any means, just watched some and it "seemed" like I didn't remember any Damascus blades in the competitions. I will now go back to my corner and be quiet, read, and learn from my betters :boat:
 
:oops:
Now the Master has spoken about the performance ability of Damascus, I do stand corrected on my much earlier post that Damascus was not used in cutting competitions. I am NOT an expert in that field by any means, just watched some and it "seemed" like I didn't remember any Damascus blades in the competitions. I will now go back to my corner and be quiet, read, and learn from my betters :boat:

Don’t be too quick to cede much ground, I am very fallible and much more a jack of all trades, master of none, but hope to continue learning until I have at least some answers to my own question. The cutting competitions I mentioned were a long time ago and few people could be expected to remember them now. As I mentioned before, if I have learned anything about Damascus steel from all my years of making it and studying it, there are no simple answers about a product and process that has infinite variables. Your contributions here show that you are a craftsman among equals who I believe has no betters, certainly not a slob like me. Unless you do something as egregious as preferring your single malt with a mixer and then you need to atone to a higher power for such a thing.:3:
 
Back
Top