Help with W2 heat treat results

csalt09

Well-Known Member
I treated four W2 coupons today. All were normalized 1650 to black 1500 to black 1350 to black and two with a 1he 1200 soak. Two were quenched in parks 50 at 1460 and two at 1470. 1 of the 1460 got a 1200 soak and one of the 1470 got a 1200 soak.
The 1470 with a 1200 soak was by far the hardest two break but it and the other 1470 had slightly larger grain I thought the smaller grain from the 1460 would be harder to break.
 
Could you help clarify what is meant by "1he"? It could help in interpreting your results.
Also, how did you determine the grain was larger or smaller? Fractured end observation? If so you could be interpreting fracture modes of different phases, which could be the result of incomplete dissolution in the heating or incomplete conversion in the hardening. A softer phase mixed in with the hard one would result in a rougher looking end grain and also be more resistant in the break.
 
Thanks for the response Kevin. I ment to say hr for hour, spell check got me.Yes, I broke the piece with a cheater bar. Would the softer phase be ideal?
 
Also how thick are your coupons? W2 is a shallow hardening steel that might not harden well if the bar is too thick. If the coupon was tapered like a blade that could give you the effects of different phases due to that effect. If you want to have a comparison for grain size break an old file, if you have one.

Doug
 
It's 1/4" and it's not tapered all the same thickness throughout. The grain size is really fine in both but the two I did at 1470 was a little larger but only a tad larger than a file. The pieces were all the same size 1/2" x 4" and all 1/4" thick. I placed the coupons in the vice and put the pipe on the same area for all four. My oven reads about 10 degrees higher than it is so I used 1460 and 1470 to make up for it.
 
¼” square stock in W2 is pressing the limits of full hardenability for even Parks #50, I have got there under some very ideal circumstances but it is pushing it. The 10F difference between 1460F and 1470F will be negligible to non-existent to grain size, vanadium is a very serious carbide requiring a lot of temp to break and it is why it was added to W2. The only real concern for going over 1475F for W2 is the possibility of retained austenite as you approach or exceed 1500F; that is why 1475F works so well.

The only true normalization was the 1650F heat, the rest were simple thermal cycles followed by a partial spheroidal anneal at 1200F. If you have differences in the two that had that last 1200F soak it is from the formation of those spheroidal carbides. Spheroidal carbide will take more effort to put into solution than fine pearlite and will cause a higher rate of pearlite formation in the quench so you could get a double whammy with leftover carbide and pearlite colonies mixed with the final martensite. This condition will cause more shear type fracturing due to plastic deformation, making the bar harder to break as well as a rougher fractured end grain. The bar without this condition will more easily break in a more brittle mode and have a smoother appearance.

The finer and more even distribution of phase/structures possible in the tougher piece, despite the fracture appearance, would be desirable, but not if it interferes with full hardness. Here is a classic example of how grain size is not always the whole story. If one pursues finer grain with no consideration to carbide conditions or phase homogeneity it is only part of the big picture. If I had to choose between a blade with pearlite colonies, retained austenite and large, uneven carbide networks that was very fined grained and the same blade that was bumped up a grain size to eliminate all those other issues, I would take the latter. Fortunately we don’t have to make those concessions and there are ways to have our cake and eat it too.
 
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DSCF4341.jpgHere are the coupons, the first two are the 1460 and the right two are the 1470's. It's hard to tell from the pics but the first two have a slightly finer grain. Kevin, if I'm understanding you it seems the 1470 on the right with the appearance of larger grain is due to shear fracturing? The right one with the 1200 soak was the toughest one. If i'm understanding right it matches what you said.
 
Fine grain that is comprised of martensite will fracture more cleanly with less deformation so you will get a smoother look on a flatter plain. Mixed structures that can deform with more shearing mechanisms will give more of that stringy and stepped look you have on the right. The one all the way to the left probably had the most martensite converted due to its appearance, the one all they way to the right did not and resulted in more directional changes in fracture to accommodate what was most likely pearlite.
 
Thanks Kevin. I will stick with 1460 with the martensite and make some test blades that are beveled and tapered and do some testing with those. I think the pieces I made are only telling me grain structure. I forgot to say I put them in the oven once full temp was reached and left them in for 13 minutes. Why would the fractured grain one be harder to break? Could it be I just had the breaker bar at a lower point on the coupon making for less leverage?
 
The harder the steel the more directly it goes into full fracture mode, i.e. there is little space between the yield strength and the ultimate strength of the material. With less homogenous hardening the space between yield strength and ultimate strength gets wider and you get more stretching of the material before it lets go so you had to pull on the lever longer to reach the full fracture mode. The force required was probably the same but one only involved that force for second while the other spread that force over time until you reached the breaking point, thus you had to pull on the sample longer.
 
Ok, thanks Kevin. I had to re-read your heat treat tool box sticky and I'm finally remembering the terminology and things are making sense to me now. It's very generous of you to take the time and share this information with everybody.
 
It's very generous of you to take the time and share this information with everybody.

I want to second that.

I'm only beginning to study up on heat treating metallurgy and I spend more time confused than enlightened. Kevin, you have a great talent for presenting complex information in a way that can be understood by those of us without your level of intimate knowledge of the subject matter.
 
csalt and John, thank you for the very kind nods. When most people these days want to chat they tell the world on social media what they just fed to their dog, I think helping us all get a better grasp on some of these concepts is a much better, and enjoyable, use of my time.
 
Kevin, I have been to your site and read as much as I can understand. I still have some basic holes, or maybe I'm overthinking it- but as I read of the chemical transformations which occur during the hardening and tempering process I don't yet understand the implications as I'm reading it. Is there a very basic, Sesame Street level book from which I can build a foundation on the subject? I feel like everything I read on the matter begins by assuming the reader has some background in metallurgy.

I can follow a recipe like anyone can, but taken as a starting point, I'd like to be able to know in which direction to begin pushing times and temperatures and have the results somewhat match my predictions.
 
Have you read Kevin's heat treat tool box sticky? That helped me more than anything else I have read. Once you have a good understanding of that you can read the free book from Vanheimer but it is not as easy to comprehend as Kevin's. I have to 're read several times but most info still flies over my head. I will be making definition list of the terminology to have while I read the info.
Kevin's stickies are what helped me the most. I printed them out a re-read them now and then.
 
thank you for that. I must have missed those stickies- maybe i was looking at the wrong part of the site.
 
Thanks guys, I am glad the tool box sticky at the top of this forum has been of help. At this time I am coding a new website to replace my old one that will be more interactive and provide information on a more organized fashion… hopefully soon…


In the meantime the book I recommend to people who want a basic introduction to metallurgy is “Metallurgy Fundamentals” by Daniel Brandt, I have personally used this book as a textbook for classes I have taught to people who have no previous knowledge on the topic. I also recommend reading this book before the more often recommended book by Verhoeven, which is a very good text but has been very widely misinterpreted and misunderstood by knifemakers because it is a bit more advanced than the title would imply.
 
Yes Verhoeven is a difficult read for me. Thanks Kevin, I just bought metallurgy fundamentals from eBay for less than 14.00 shipped. It is the one published in 1999 . They have the 2005 edition but it is a lot more money so hopefully the one I got is just as good.John, there are a couple more under 20.00 but they didn't state what edition.
 
Metallurgy Fundamentals is awesome. I have a downloaded PDF of that book. On (my) page 140, there is the BEST iron-carbon equalibrium diagram ever.
 
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