Heat treating in a residential basement?

Motor City Mike

Well-Known Member
I'm thinking about putting together a small shop and knife making may be one of the things I try out.

I'm running down the logistics of what I'd need and how to set everything up.

The ONLY place I'd be able to do this is in my basement. Our garage has cars in it and our HOA would never let me build a structure (well they would but the requirements are outrageous).

Anyway on to my question, would I be able to do heat treating in my basement? Are there any dangerous fumes produced by the process? Last thing I want to do is gas our pets or even myself.

Also, how much heat is produced outside the oven? Too much for a small basement room?
 
You might be able to get by with it with an electric high temperature oven but I'd still worried about a flair up from the quenchant (of course you could always try brine with a shallow hardening steel). Don't even think about doing anything with a gas forge inside the house. Besides the flame coming out of them they really put out a lot of carbon monoxide. Then keeping a propane tank inside a building is not a good idea, probably a building code violation besides being a risk of blowing up your house. Also you could have your insurance cancelled on you.

A better idea would be to confine your knife making to air quenching steels and send the blades out for heat treating.

Doug
 
You might be able to get by with it with an electric high temperature oven but I'd still worried about a flair up from the quenchant (of course you could always try brine with a shallow hardening steel). Don't even think about doing anything with a gas forge inside the house. Besides the flame coming out of them they really put out a lot of carbon monoxide. Then keeping a propane tank inside a building is not a good idea, probably a building code violation besides being a risk of blowing up your house. Also you could have your insurance cancelled on you.

A better idea would be to confine your knife making to air quenching steels and send the blades out for heat treating.

Doug

No forging, no open flame. Strictly stock removal and HT in an Evenheat oven. Probably plate quench to try and keep things as safe as possible.

At least that's the tentative plan.
 
I know stock removal makers that have set up just such a shop in the basement. An electric heat treating oven, obviously, and then your method of quenching. If you are plate quenching you will be using air hardening alloys, or at least I hope, I am seeing a disturbing trend in steels that just were not meant for that being used, I have plenty of metallurgical evidence to back up my reservations but will not bother to start a stink on forums over it. Air quenching steels will require the control and temperature output of the electric oven anyhow.

If you wish to expand to other alloys, that would require oil, this is still not a deal breaker, aside from the fumes oil quenching really should not be any scarier than deep frying, if done correctly. I would get a range hood, easy to find cheap at garage sales and such, or not even that expensive new. Vent the hood out one of your basement windows and then build a metal enclosure around your quenching area that will hold your oil container. A great oil container is a larger electric roaster pan, it will allow you to gently preheat your oil without having to heat steel and plunge it in, making a mess and unwanted smoke, the pan also has a cover for when not in use. Keep a fire extinguisher right next to the enclosure just in case.

You will be amazed at how much the precision of the oven will eliminate flare ups and smoking. Most, if not all, of the flames in a quench are not necessary and result from overheating the steel or hot tongs igniting the vapors. I cannot remember the last time I had more than a few wisps of vapor from a proper quench, if there are flames in a quenching operation you are doing something wrong. There will be some vapors but they will be easily vented by the range hood.

As I said, when done correctly quenching should be less of a hazard than deep frying. How often have we had some extra ice crystals in the frozen French fry’s that caused 400F oil to spatter and land on a heated stove element, this is much more of a danger than taking steel down to 100F in a few seconds, which is by definition a cooling operation v.s. the french fries which is a heating operation from start to finish.
 
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before i got a seperate work shop, i heat treated using an electric furnace in basement and kitchen. i never had an issues, although i put my quench tank near an exhaust vent so any fumes could be removed after quench was done. i recommend you buy some cement backer board(the kind you would use for bathroom tile) and place it on the work table and floor where you are going to heat treat. i got the idea from a friend that does glass blowing. the backer board i found at Lowes is rated not to burn thru for 2 hours when a 2000F heat source is applied. it should protect your work table and floor from dropped blades.
 
Looks like you have a plan then. Just one thing, make sure that you have a circuit that can handle the load. I'd love to have a heat treating oven but even if I was to buy a 110 volt model I'd have to get a new service. Whoever remodeled this house put in a new service but one that is full up and can't be expanded and plugging into an existing 110 volt line could throw a breaker.

Doug
 
You can send out A LOT of blades for heat treat for the cost of an oven and foil. Just something to think about. I send mine to Peters 25 blades at a time for about $130 round trip, which includes cryo. The oven I want runs about $1200. In round numbers, that's about a 250 blade break-even, without adding the cost of consumables.
 
Looks like you have a plan then. Just one thing, make sure that you have a circuit that can handle the load. I'd love to have a heat treating oven but even if I was to buy a 110 volt model I'd have to get a new service. Whoever remodeled this house put in a new service but one that is full up and can't be expanded and plugging into an existing 110 volt line could throw a breaker.

Doug
get a 220v furnace and use the dryer outlet when it is not in use
 
You can send out A LOT of blades for heat treat for the cost of an oven and foil. Just something to think about. I send mine to Peters 25 blades at a time for about $130 round trip, which includes cryo. The oven I want runs about $1200. In round numbers, that's about a 250 blade break-even, without adding the cost of consumables.

Yea but you don't have to wait to send them there heat treat them and send them back plus more control and it feels better to do more stuff in house


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Very true in all cases. Being able to heat treat one-off is why I want one, too. I only brought it up because the OP is just thinking about putting a knife shop together and is concerned about logistics and working in a basement. If I was grinding in a basement I'd be much more concerned with setting up a great dust collection system before I worried about my own heat treating. Not to say he can't do it all at once, though.
 
Very true in all cases. Being able to heat treat one-off is why I want one, too. I only brought it up because the OP is just thinking about putting a knife shop together and is concerned about logistics and working in a basement. If I was grinding in a basement I'd be much more concerned with setting up a great dust collection system before I worried about my own heat treating. Not to say he can't do it all at once, though.

my experience working in the basement is that you biggest dust producers are wood and plastic. a well placed shop vac nozzle and a bucket of water will take care of most of your blade dust. another solution is to make a dirty room or corner that can be closed off when making dust.
 
That would be a good idea, Scott, if it wasn't for the fact that I have a gas dryer. I'd still have to bring in a new service to have a 220 volt outlet. Sometimes you just can't win. Someone put a street lamp on the back end of the garage. I wonder how much juice that pulls? Maybe I could cut the wire on it and put an outlet on it that can handle 110v.

Doug
 
There is a possibility that the old street lamp is 230v not 110. Check the wire size and see.
 
Looks like you have a plan then. Just one thing, make sure that you have a circuit that can handle the load. I'd love to have a heat treating oven but even if I was to buy a 110 volt model I'd have to get a new service. Whoever remodeled this house put in a new service but one that is full up and can't be expanded and plugging into an existing 110 volt line could throw a breaker.

Doug


Why can't it be expanded?

You should be able to add a sub panel that taps off your service panel. Even if your service panel is full just move some circuits to the sub panel.

It's really not hard. I added one on the other side of my basement to power my shop when I assemble it. I did have an electrician double check my work and pronounce it safe. I gave him $50 cash. Easy peasey.
 
Sleestack, that's just what an electrician told me. I had an electrical problem that he said could be cured by putting in a new circuit and then said my panel was full.

Doug
 
Sleestack, that's just what an electrician told me. I had an electrical problem that he said could be cured by putting in a new circuit and then said my panel was full.

Doug

Not to belabor the point, just as a FYI

A sub panel is just a second box that gives you more "slots" in which to add circuit breakers which will allow you to add additional circuits. It gets it's current from the original service panel. It's an easy way to add more circuit breakers (circuits). That may have been what your electrician was referring to.

However, what a sub panel WON'T do is add amperage capacity. So if you have 100 amp service you still have to stay within the limits of your 100 amp service. That too may have been what your electrician was talking about. For that you need to upgrade your service. There are NEMA tables that are guidelines for capacities and amperage's and how much you can load a box. It sounds more complicated than it is. I was able to figure it out without too much trouble.

I had a electrician put in 200 amp service about 10 years ago but I installed my own sub panel (it was easy). Knowing what I know now, I would have upgraded my own service panel too.

If you just need more circuit breakers (circuits) to solve your problem then a sub panel will do that. It's straight forward and takes minimal skill. And it can be done for a lot less than $100.


I just like to be able to figure things out for myself and do them myself if I can. Which is a big reason why I'd want to do my own heat treating. I like having a problem or a task and working my way through it. I learn a lot that way.
 
Yea but you don't have to wait to send them there heat treat them and send them back plus more control and it feels better to do more stuff in house

I agree. I can buy a bottle of wine from the grocery store for under $15. (Obviously I don't have an extravagant palate :biggrin:) So why do I go through all the bother of tending a grape vine, purchasing equipment, mashing my own grapes to make my own wine at what is probably 5 times the cost? Because its mine.

Same with knives. I do my own heat treating because its mine. I bought an Evenheat KO 22.5 with a TAP controller. I would recommend this model to anyone considering purchasing one. And don't forget to ask for the "Bill Burke" modification which adds an extra layer of insulation around the outside of the oven (under the shell) in order to keep the oven from getting too hot to touch. Its still gets hot...but not to the point of causing burns. I purchased from TruGrit...lowest price I'd found...and they do list the BB mod as an option.
 
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