Question about LN Dewars

BonhamBlades

Well-Known Member
I am wanting to buy a Dewar and have been educating my self by reading the archived threads here. My question that I haven't found the answer to yet is what is the smallest size (liters) dewar you can get away with if your blade sizes range from 1 to 12 inches in length. other than making sure the dewar is in good working order, has good vacuum, is not glass, is there anything else I need to be aware of when choosing one to buy? I am wanting to purchase used. I have been looking on ebay. Is there anywhere else that I should be looking? Thank you in advance for taking the time to help me out.
 
Neck opening has to be enough to accommodate your widest blades. I have several 20L tanks here that have 1 7/8" neck opening, so that 2" kitchen knife won't fit in. Also, it is very hard on a tank to frequently go from cold to dry/warm. Tanks last longer if they are kept charged with LN, so that 'smallest size' may have a trade off. Just a couple things to consider.

Rob!
 
I'm very interested in this topic too. I'm on the look out for one as well.

John

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For our purposes, finding a dewar can be tricky..... as has been mentioned, you want a "wide mouth" to accomodate the widest blade(s) you ever plan to do, herein lies the problem for using a dewar the way we do. Any dewar with a mouth larger then about 1 5/8" is considered a "temp" or "lab" dewar.....meaning that the insulation is such that its only meant to hold the liquid nitrogen for a very short period of time....generally less then a couple of hours. What that means for us as knifemakers is that we generally have to choose between a wide mouthed dewar that will accomdate the width of blade, and resign ourselves to refilling it every time we use it.....OR we settle for a dewar that has a smaller "mouth", that will hold/keep the liquid nitrogen for a longer period of time.

Personally, I have a dewar that has a 1 5/8" mouth, that holds 56lbs of liquid nitrogen (about 6.7 gallons). Its an expensive bugger to fill, so in order to try to "keep" the nitrogen as long as possible, I built a plywood box, with 2" polyfoam insulation on the inside. Its just large enough to place my dewar inside. Once the dewar is in the box, I fill all of the airspace with vermiculite, and place a piece of typical R30 fiberglass over the top of the dewar.....then close the hinged lid (the lid also has 2" polyfoam on the inside).

I'm limited to treating blades less then the opening size, however, once filled and in the box, I can maintain enough nitrogen in the dewar to treat blades for approx. 50-60 days. Prior to building the insulated "box", the dewar would be dry within 12-14 days, no matter the external temps.

When I treat blades, I hang them a length of stainless wire, slowly lower them into the liquid (lots of "boil off happening), and as soon as possible, put the plug on the dewar in place, and get the fiberglass insulation back on top, and close the lid. One thing I learned early on is that unless you want to get a lot of mico cracking on blades, you need to ensure the once removed, the blade are forced to warm up SLOWLY....... the first few blades I did... I pulled blades out of the dewar, and laid them on a steel bench.....bad move.....within a few seconds they started popping and tinging......and by the time I realized what was happening, it was too late...they had already cracked is a number of places along the edges. Since learning that painful lesson, I now take the blades out, and lay them directly on a large 1" thick piece of kawool.....and either fold it over the blade(s), or place a second piece of kawool on top. It takes about 1-2 hours for them to "warm up" to where I can handle them without welding gloves....but it solved any cracking issues.
 
Most dewars you will find for sale are used for livestock seed. These are common on ebay and occasionally on Craig's list. I have a 30liter and it costs about $80 to fill. I'd prefer a 20 liter. The cap was missing when I got it so I use a rolled up piece of foam for a cap. I also keep mine inside of an insulated plywood box and that adds several weeks before it evaporates.

Unfortuneately used ones have gone up quite bit in the last several years but keep your eyes open and you might get a bargain. If you know any ranchers, ask if they have any old dewars around.
 
So on the idea that different experiences might lead to different expectation, I have 2, wide mouth (a 3" and a 4+") dewars - both old - one is 20L the other is 37L. The 20L tanks gives me 4 - 5 weeks with daily use - and the 37L gives me about 6+ weeks - again daily use. I don't use any plywood box or extra insulation - just sitting on a skid in my heated shop. I suppose I'd get still longer life if I were to take those measures as well, but the outside isn't even cool so they can't be losing much for temp.

Tracy is right - all of mine have come from livestock AI operations and its nice to find one complete with rack or tube to hold blades in.

I agree with Ed too about uneven warming. The stresses are high enough in freshly cryoed blades without cooling one side faster than the other. Mine just go in the blade rack that will eventually go in the oven.

It should be noted that LN has SO MANY other uses, but it would not be appropriate to discuss them on a forum frequented by boys of all ages. :biggrin:

Rob!
 
There are actual Dewars out there with large necks. I have a 35 Liter Dewar with a 3" neck that lasts 6-8 weeks depending on how many blades I treat. Tracy is correct, the cattle breeding industry is the place to look for used Dewars. I paid $150 for mine. I'm also fortunate enough to be able to buy LN for $1 per Liter so for me, LN is actually cheaper than dry ice & alcohol.
 
LN is almost always available at your local gas welding supply store. They often also have blocks of dry ice.
 
I'm going to just search locally first. But a good idea if I search online.

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I pulled the trigger and went with a 20liter with a internal neck diameter of 2.25 inches in near new condition.
 
I went with an international. It was a little spendy at 350 + 49 for shipping but it had only been used once and is in emaculate condition. I opted for a 20 liter so it won't cost a fortune to fill. I plan to build a insulated box as suggested by Ed.
 
Just a thought here, but it would be possible to get a dewar with a smaller neck size, but would still accommodate most of the knives you produce. Then for the larger ones, build an insulated container and just pour enough LN into it to cover the blade. Yeah, more will be lost when doing the big blades, but if the smaller necked dewar is more efficient, it may be a net win.

-Kurt
 
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