AEB-L Rc question

K

KDX

Well-Known Member
I'm going to be making a hunter for a buddy of mine and was wondering what hardness I should be tempering the steel to. I'll be using 1/8" steel, approx 5-5.5" blade length and a full flat grind. He hunts mostly moose and elk.
 
For kitchen applications I'd suggest in the 62-63 range, for field use probably more like 60 to add a little toughness. This is a great steel, I'm sure your buddy will love the knife.

-Kurt
 
Kurt is correct, AEB-L really shines @ 62 or above. For a hunter, it really depends on how your friend will use the knife. If it will only be cutting hide & flesh then 62 will be fine. If the knife will be used for pelvic & breast bones it will either need to be drawn back a point or two softer or have the edge geometry thickened a bit more.
Personally, I prefer to leave them at 62 and adjust the geometry to compensate for tougher jobs. For example, if the knife wont be going through bones/cartilage I would run it at 62 HRC and .008" - .012" behind the edge. If it will be used on bone/cartilage, I would run it at 62 HRC and .018" - .022" behind the edge.
 
I did one for a buddy at Rc62, 0.010" behind the edge, and 20deg/side. He cut through cartilage without any damage. He doesn't split the pelvic bone with his skinners. Darrin gives good advice. I would listen to it.
 
Im curious about this steel as well, what's the HT recipe for it?
How hot does it have to get to reach critical temperature?
Does it require a sub-zero quench? My guess is yes, but you
never know, unti you check the data sheets, this a Carpenter steel,
correct?


I know they are making some phenomenal steels, extreme
high performance stuff!!!


Thanks for the help, Rex
BTW, the reason I ask is if the critical temp is higher than my kiln is rated,
i then have to decide if I want to send it off for HT'ing, which I've never done
before. I have kept everything in house so far, I know I will eventually either
have to send some of my steels out or buy a new kiln...not something I'm all
that interested in at the moment, I have bigger projects/builds in the making that
requires all of my extra resources, I will probably have to stop working on that
and make a few knives to sell, something I dont do regularly, just yet. Due to my
circumstances, taking on that kind of responsibility is a thing I have to weigh out
In my mind to make sure I can fulfill my end of the deal for the long haul! that's why
I ask for this type of info, Thanks again. Rex
 
Rex, what temp is your oven rated for? Isn't it at least 2,000ºF? Most all the steels are less than 2K, but close to it. AEB-L is very much like the 13C26 Sandvik steel. While most folks say AEB-L MUST be at least dry ice (-95ºF) treated, the cutting test by KDX in another thread indicates even without any cold treatment you still get a VERY good blade. KDX says in side by side testing of identical blades with all things being equal other than -95ºF treatment, it's hard to tell difference.

I used AEB-L for the first time in some paring/steak knifes a few weeks ago and it is good. I doubt I could tell the difference in 13C26 vs AEB-L steels. I still like Sandvik steels {g}

Ken H>
 
Darrin Sanders said:
Kurt is correct, AEB-L really shines @ 62 or above. For a hunter, it really depends on how your friend will use the knife. If it will only be cutting hide & flesh then 62 will be fine. If the knife will be used for pelvic & breast bones it will either need to be drawn back a point or two softer or have the edge geometry thickened a bit more.
Personally, I prefer to leave them at 62 and adjust the geometry to compensate for tougher jobs. For example, if the knife wont be going through bones/cartilage I would run it at 62 HRC and .008" - .012" behind the edge. If it will be used on bone/cartilage, I would run it at 62 HRC and .018" - .022" behind the edge.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I will follow your advice. I'm pretty sure he uses a saw or axe to split the bones. They would be pretty big on a moose. He did say that moose hide is very hard on a blade edge.
 
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KDX said:
Thanks. I will follow your advice. I'm pretty sure he uses a saw or axe to split the bones. They would be pretty big on a moose. He did say that moose hide is very hard on a blade edge.
Click to expand...

For moose, I did testers in 52100, and S35VN, both could do a full gritty moose without touching up. The AEB-L knife hasn't done a moose yet. I would guess it would be closer to the 52100 than the S35VN in wear resistance. My buddy previously used 440c with a toothy edge, for a full moose, his dad's hunting knife handed down. He much preferred the knives I made, with much better geometry. I'll report back if and when I get feedback on the AEB-L blade.
 
Really interesting thread. I've suggested to people in the past that 62 on AEB-L is playing on the edge, and best reserved for a chef who knows how to treat his blade. An excellent point has been raised by Darrin, that edge geometry may be able to compensate for that. I accept that, but wonder if maybe a user with more than slicing in mind should be considering a different steel. AEB-L was designed to a purpose. Just thinkin' out loud and my mind is wide open on this one.
 
Warren Krywko said:
For moose, I did testers in 52100, and S35VN, both could do a full gritty moose without touching up. The AEB-L knife hasn't done a moose yet. I would guess it would be closer to the 52100 than the S35VN in wear resistance. My buddy previously used 440c with a toothy edge, for a full moose, his dad's hunting knife handed down. He much preferred the knives I made, with much better geometry. I'll report back if and when I get feedback on the AEB-L blade.
Click to expand...

That sounds pretty good and I'm looking forward to hearing anything if you get the information. Thanks.
 
Knifemaker.ca said:
Really interesting thread. I've suggested to people in the past that 62 on AEB-L is playing on the edge, and best reserved for a chef who knows how to treat his blade. An excellent point has been raised by Darrin, that edge geometry may be able to compensate for that. I accept that, but wonder if maybe a user with more than slicing in mind should be considering a different steel. AEB-L was designed to a purpose. Just thinkin' out loud and my mind is wide open on this one.
Click to expand...

Good point. I'm hesitant to make a knife just to destroy, but may have to consider it at some point. So far I would say it's on par (or possibly a little better) than the S35VN or Elmax that I've tested as far as cutting goes (Sebenza 25 and a hunter by Kevin Cox.).
 
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I wish Dave Ferry (aka Horsewright over on BF) frequented this site. I have yet to finish a knife out of the AEB-L or 13c26 but he is the one that turned me on to them. He makes a lot of hard, daily use knives and likes the AEB-L. I believe he normally has a 61 Hrc target (Peter's Heat Treat does all his) but pushes it up to 62 or 63 on special projects. As for toughness, one story he told me about AEB-L, was he had a customer somehow hit his knife/sheath with a lawn mower. Destroyed the sheath in the area of the blade, but you couldn't tell it by the knife blade.

Chris
 
Think of AEB-L as stainless 15N20. Same toughness, edge holding etc. At Rc62, it exceptional. 15N20 at Rc58-59 is nothing special, but at Rc62, its like O1 at Rc60. Same with AEB-L. It'll never have the wear resistance of S35VN, but it will get a super fine grain edge, like the best carbon steels, and will wear reasonably well. I REALLY like AEB-L. As a hobbyist maker, I limit my steels to a handful, to make sure I can optimize my hear treat and geometry for my steels. For stainless, I use AEB-L, when a fine grain, super sharp steel is needed, and S35VN when wear resistance is preferred. I'm still sorting out optimum geometry and heat treat for S35VN, but the AEB-L is great at Rc62, just adjust geometry for the purpose. Great steel, totally underrated.
 
Warren - when you get the S35VN dialed in, please post info and I hope I don't miss it (maybe drop me a email/PM?). I made my first blade using CPM-S30V a couple weeks ago and have been pretty impressed so far.

Ken H>
 
KenH said:
Rex, what temp is your oven rated for? Isn't it at least 2,000ºF? Most all the steels are less than 2K, but close to it. AEB-L is very much like the 13C26 Sandvik steel. While most folks say AEB-L MUST be at least dry ice (-95ºF) treated, the cutting test by KDX in another thread indicates even without any cold treatment you still get a VERY good blade. KDX says in side by side testing of identical blades with all things being equal other than -95ºF treatment, it's hard to tell difference.

I used AEB-L for the first time in some paring/steak knifes a few weeks ago and it is good. I doubt I could tell the difference in 13C26 vs AEB-L steels. I still like Sandvik steels {g}

Ken H>
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Yeah Ken,
My kiln is only rated for 2000 degrees, what I was told was after that, the warranty would be void, not that the warranty is anything ti worry about anymore, the company mine came from is no more!
But, I think there is a reason they put a limit on the temp so I will do my best to stay within those boundaries, it just seems like the right thing to do.
I wouldn't want to have to buy a kiln these days, they tend to be a bit pricey! The one I want is anyway! The Sandvik steel Ive HT'd so far has been in the 1950 range, and thats fine, even if I had to go to 1975, it would still be fine, there is another Sandvik steel I have been wanting to try, 13C28, I think it was, the HT temp on it was 1980, I think. Again, that should be good too, adding the computer controls to my kiln was one of the best investments Ive made for HT'ing! Ive also wanted to give some of the Carpenter steels a try, but most of them the HT temp is out of my range, thats why I was wanting to know what this one was. Ive heard great things about it, and would love to see if its good enough to replace the Sandvik Im using now. I use several high carbon steels but only a couple of the Stainless Steels, I am partial to Crucibal and Hitatchi(...cant recall the name of it, as usual!) Ive found its best to only use the steels Im confident in HTing, and if Im not, I dont tend to use them until Ive Ht'd enough, and tested them, Im also a one knife at a time guy, Ive done multiple blades at once one time, I felt like my quench oil got too hot, not to mention opening and closing the kiln drops the temp, as well as damages the coils over time. So I have stuck to one knife at a time since that one time. Im usually a lot slower than that, but figured that out quick!
Thanks Ken! Great to see you so involved in the group, while I know you're learning a lot, Im sure your sharing some of your life experiences! I hope so, anyway!
Rex
 
Warren Krywko said:
Think of AEB-L as stainless 15N20. Same toughness, edge holding etc. At Rc62, it exceptional. 15N20 at Rc58-59 is nothing special, but at Rc62, its like O1 at Rc60. Same with AEB-L. It'll never have the wear resistance of S35VN, but it will get a super fine grain edge, like the best carbon steels, and will wear reasonably well. I REALLY like AEB-L. As a hobbyist maker, I limit my steels to a handful, to make sure I can optimize my hear treat and geometry for my steels. For stainless, I use AEB-L, when a fine grain, super sharp steel is needed, and S35VN when wear resistance is preferred. I'm still sorting out optimum geometry and heat treat for S35VN, but the AEB-L is great at Rc62, just adjust geometry for the purpose. Great steel, totally underrated.
Click to expand...

KenH said:
Warren - when you get the S35VN dialed in, please post info and I hope I don't miss it (maybe drop me a email/PM?). I made my first blade using CPM-S30V a couple weeks ago and have been pretty impressed so far.

Ken H>
Click to expand...

i have used Rc60 for the few S35VN blades, with the same geometry as the AEB-L. I suspect I can go thinner, with lower angles, but haven't done so. I'll do some testing with my next stainless project. In my limited experience, sharpening S35VN beyond a 2000g stone is a waste of time, but is still a very sharp knife. I have two that have been in use for 9months that haven't required sharpening yet, based on feedback from a farmer who uses one daily, and another used in the kitchen daily as a utility knife, as well as some skinning. It's a versatile profile I will be making a lot more of.
 
Warren, it sounds like you've got S35V dialed in pretty good. How do you heat treat S35V? From the S35V MSDS sheet: "Recommended Heat Treatment:Austenitize 1950°F (1065°C). Quench to below 125°F (50°C).Double temper at 600°F (315°C) 2 hrs. minimum each temper.Cool to hand warm between tempers. A freezing treatment maybe added between tempers. Aim hardness: 58-61 HRC"

That's always seemed wrong to me - to me, it seems like the -95ºF should be right after quench, then tempering.

Comments please -

Ken H
 
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