Lots of questions about blade material! Please forgive me!

L

LRS30

Member
Ok here we go, I am gathering information and materials for my first knife. I have afew questions that I would love some input on. I am wanting to build a durable knife mainly used on camping/boating trips so to speak. Somthing about 3.5/4" blade length, that will hold a good edge, used for cutting various style ropes, shapening limbs for hot dogs and marshmallows ( lol hey I like dogs over the fire, and s'mores,who doesn't like a good s'more.) opening various packages, basically a good all around camping tool, not a survival knife mind you but a good tool to keep on my hip!
I have the capabilities to home heat treat ( I know it won't produce professional results but it's for personal use), I.E. toaster oven/home oven.
1. What material would be best for me to start with, I have grinders, hand held, bench and belt.
2. Do the all blanks have to be annealed before shaping begins?
3. Is there a material that doesn't require annealing, that will work for what I am wanting to do, if so what is recommended.
4. I dont plan on making these as a profession, but i may make a couple for my brother and a couple camping buddies, so is there a company that doesnt sell in bulk but small quantities.
I hope these are not stupid questions, but I am a total newb! And hope to get some good input back from you guys.. I can do back yard annealing if necessary I'd just prefer to cut that step out if possible. I thank you guys in advance, I am a hot rod/chopper guy and this is a whole new ball game for me, so I am mechanically inclined and have a nice selection of tools to do the job, if you guys would like to check out some of my work/projects you can by searching me on instagram user name is RYANF100
 
Hey, I probably know less than most guy on this forum, but I am first to comment- that's worth something, right? It sounds like you might have heat treating confused with tempering. The toaster oven may work for tempering,but not heat-treating (as in bringing the steel up to the hardness you desire). For that you will need to get the steel up to much greqter temperatures. Even though you don't plan on getting too invoved, you might be surprised. I started only wanting to make one knife, but then got addicted.
Don't give up-there are a lot of helpful makers here (that have better answers than I can provide).
Bill
 
I do have my terminology confused you are correct, loll like I said I am a newb! But I hope I explained it well enough that it does translate thru my ignorance.... And thanks for pointing it out, I take criticizing well, so please offer opinions..
 
You may just want to try one of the many kit knives. Boss sells them, Jantz, etc. They are already shaped and heat treated and you can personalize them with handle material, blade finish, sheaths, etc. But, if you're determined to do it yourself, you could heat treat with a torch and oil quench, temper in a toaster oven and come up with a decent blade on the cheap. You can find precision ground steel at several places, that'll save you a little trouble, I've bought a lot of O1 at Enco and they sell smaller quantities. Or, any of the 10 series steels, 1075, 1084, 1095 etc. will also respond ok to torch heat treating. I'm no expert either, but you can make a basic knife with a hacksaw, files, torch, and the kitchen oven just to try it out.
 
Thanks guys, I will look at some pre-shaped blanks, but really want to try shaping one from a blank canvas so to speak. I have been reading up for a while now, and correct me if I am wrong but it does seem that 1084 would be a good candidate for my beginner application. Like I said I am a total newb to this, and have been wanting to try my hand at it for along time, and like any other art form there are BIG learning curves, and real no set rules, and everybody has different opinions, and perceptions of how things should be done, and that's what had drawn me to this! I relate it to hot rod building, in the sense that if everybody built bright red 32 3 windows what fun would it be, that's why I love the creativity of it.
So am I on the right path with thinking that 1084 would be a good medium to begin with, that with patience a guy in his garage with a little bit of luck could produce a decent tool to work with and put thru the paces or the real world?
and if by going with 1084 what thickness should I shoot for to produce a good sturdy tool?
Thanks guys so much for helping me, I'm not sure if you have read my intro, but this is like the first thing I have been excited about doing in a year.
 
I'm about a year deep. And trust me its an investment to get started even for less than stellar equipment. For starting out and home heat treat you're probably not going to be using a stainless steel un less your willing to have someone else do your heat treat.

I won't tell you what to do I'll just tell you what I did.

I tried the whole file and hacksaw thing. It just wasn't for me. I work full time. When I do have time to work on my knives I like to make progress. So I went the 1x30 belt grinder route. There are many of them. None of them are great but some aren't that bad. Good belts are your friend here. Places like TruGrit are a great source. Then next most important tool is a drill press. Trust me you want your pin holes to line up perfectly. I didn't start out with one but I know use a band saw for cutting my steel. Some guys use porta-bandsaws I opted for a harbor-freight 4x6. As for steel and homebrew heat treat you can do it. Your going to need a source of immense heat. So consider a forge. There's a ton of choices out there from making one yourself to buying one. Again I bought mine because I don't feel like fiddling with things or learning yet another new skill. I got an atlas mini forge. Works excellent. For steel that youll heat treat yourself go with 1080/1084 it is a great steel that is easily as good as 1095 in my opinion but is easier to heat treat.

This was my set up with rough costs for what I paid

Grizzly 1x30- 150$
Variable speed drill press- 280
Atlas mini forge- 285
Band saw- 280

It adds up quick and not all of its necessary to make a knife. Likes been said a hack saw, a file and a pallet of sandpaper can and will get excellent results with a ton of time and patience.
 
I think everyone has already given some solid advice. Im only a year into it to and foind that this craft is like many others you get out of it what you put into it. I made my first 3 knives with nothing more than files, hacksaw, drill press and sand paper.
I would suggest no more than 1/8" thick stock to start with. If you do the heat treat yourself 1084 is probably the best. If you are like me and don't want to put all that work into something only to screw up the heat treat and have a crapy knife, send it out to a pro to do. It's about $10 per blade to have someone do it. Darrin Sanders a member on here has done mine and is great to deal with.
 
if you have grinders and bandsaw you are in business. i would get some 1084 from Aldo(njsteelbaron.com) or who ever else has some in stock. if you have 1/8" you can heat treat in your wood stove or a charcoal grill. get a good fire going. have a container nearby big enough so you can dunk your blade point first and move it up and down an inch without hitting bottom. fill container with canola oil, best if you can heat the oil to about 115F or so. put the blade in the coals and watch the magic happen. the blade will turn red and if you watch closely, patterns in the red form and move. this means you have reached non-magnetic. use a magnet on a extension and see if the blade is still magnetic. if it is not magnetic, keep the fire at the same point and let it sit for about 3 or 4 minutes. use tongs or visegrips and grab the end of the tang. you dont have to rush, but get the knife from fire to oil quickly. work the blade up and down in the oil for about a minute. should be cool enough to touch. wipe off excess oil and into 300F oven. leave for an hour. take it out, rinse with cold tap water and scrub the blade with brillo or scotchbrite until all the black scaley stuff is gone. rinse well. back into over at 350-375F. leave it for an hour. cold water rinse and you now have a hardened blade to start finishing. for the first couple blades, keep the shape simple, straight edges(look up a picture of a sheepsfoot blade).
have fun and ask lots of questions
 
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Guys thanks so much! This is all great advice, I have the tool aspect covered for the most part, and I'm sure that I can do a beginners grade home heat treat with the tips given above. I am gonna source some material today, and see what kind of trouble I can get myself into.. I will post my progress, and look forward to advice! Thanks again!
 
suggestions - there is probably is fifty more suggestions that will also work for you:

1. 1084 for carbon steel, 440c for stainless. The 1084 can be heat treated home style with minimal tools (a torch, a small forge, etc) and tempered in the oven (when your wife isn't home).
440c is economical and easily available in lot's of sizes. It requires a more precise approach to heat treating but there are dozens of places that will do that for you.
2. blanks do not have to be annealed but it's easier and quicker if they are. Drilling holes in a hardened blanks can be done with carbide drills but it is always better to drill in annealed steel. Many guys grind folder blades fully hard to avoid warping during heat treat. Grinders with the right belts can grind hard steel but some exotic alloys are definitely not trivial to grind.
3. most stainless steels will come annealed. Carbon steel depends on how it comes from the mill. HR=hot rolled and will be usually half hard to fully hard in places. CR=cold rolled. Usually has less scale and generally isn't as hard as HR but tends to have hard spots. CRA or HRA = Cold/Hot rolled Annealed and should be soft
4. we expect to see some hot rod/chopper pictures. Many of the metal fab skills you have there will transfer over to knife making.

LRS30 said:
Ok here we go, I am gathering information and materials for my first knife. I have afew questions that I would love some input on. I am wanting to build a durable knife mainly used on camping/boating trips so to speak. Somthing about 3.5/4" blade length, that will hold a good edge, used for cutting various style ropes, shapening limbs for hot dogs and marshmallows ( lol hey I like dogs over the fire, and s'mores,who doesn't like a good s'more.) opening various packages, basically a good all around camping tool, not a survival knife mind you but a good tool to keep on my hip!
I have the capabilities to home heat treat ( I know it won't produce professional results but it's for personal use), I.E. toaster oven/home oven.
1. What material would be best for me to start with, I have grinders, hand held, bench and belt.
2. Do the all blanks have to be annealed before shaping begins?
3. Is there a material that doesn't require annealing, that will work for what I am wanting to do, if so what is recommended.
4. I dont plan on making these as a profession, but i may make a couple for my brother and a couple camping buddies, so is there a company that doesnt sell in bulk but small quantities.
I hope these are not stupid questions, but I am a total newb! And hope to get some good input back from you guys.. I can do back yard annealing if necessary I'd just prefer to cut that step out if possible. I thank you guys in advance, I am a hot rod/chopper guy and this is a whole new ball game for me, so I am mechanically inclined and have a nice selection of tools to do the job, if you guys would like to check out some of my work/projects you can by searching me on instagram user name is RYANF100
Click to expand...
 
Just out of curiosity, does anybody know what steel is sold at the big box stores? You know what I'm talking about, in the 3' pieces,with the solid bar stock, and square tubing that they sell generally next to the welding supplies? There was this old timer that I used to buy Ford Model A parts off of that was making some skinning knives for his buddies using this stuff. I've never had much luck using the stuff for nothing more than bracing on projects, as I've tried welding it and it always seems to provide a very porous weld due to what I'm guessing is a lot of garbage in the forging process of the steel. I've noticed this also on Japanese motorcycles vs others. I was told it was due to the fact that the steels used in other countries isn't the same quality as our good old USA steels from back in the day. Just curious since we are talking different materials..
 
As stated, NO Lowes or HD steel! That stuff might be ok if you just want practice grinding on, but I wouldn't even waste your time with that either. Found steel, cutting blades from various machines etc is cheap to play around with, but who knows how it will turn out. I've experimented with some equipment blades with success, but went into it knowing that it might end up in the scrap bin. You'll be happiest if you start with one of the blade steels already suggested.
 
I plan on using 1084, I was curious as to why he was using it, and if I was missing something... I am actually placing an order today.
 
Well I thought I was gonna order some 1/4" 1084 but cannot seem to find any so far, it seems all the online suppliers are out of stock, unless I'm not reading it right. I figure for my first couple I'd like to find 1/4"x 2 1/2-3"x 24" at most. Does anybody know where I can find such an animal? I looked at USA KNIFE MAKERS, TEXAS, AND NJ BARON, and it seems everybody is out of stock.. Or am I not looking in the right places? Any help would be great..
 
Admiral steel, Alpha Knife Supply, maybe. I've even bought steel on eBay. You sound like your mind is made up, but 1/4" is very thick for a knife, I'd go 1/8", 5/32", or 3/16" at most.
 
I meant 1/8" I had 1/4" drill bits on my mind.. I will do a search with some of the other companies mentioned, thanks
 
I was just reading on Alpha Knife site that 1084 has been discontinued and that 1080 is a good equivalent And a very similar compound. I wonder if that's why I was having a rough time finding it eelsewhere in flat stock form..
 
1080 and 1084 cross spec's and can be considered close enough to call identical or equivalent..
 
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