HT w/toaster oven

C Craft

Well-Known Member
I know a true HT oven would be best but I can't afford one at this time. Even heat's ovens and kilns start at $865 and run up too $2895, and that is a retail price I think. Any way my old toaster oven up and died, which puts me in the market for another!

So I got this question, when looking for a toaster oven to use as a HT oven what features do you look for, size, heating range, elements, etc. etc.???

I have been keeping an eye out for one on craigslist and well some of them I have seen are way too high. First of all if you want a new price it should be still in the factory sealed box. :what!: IMHO Not only used once to make toast on Sunday morning by a little ole lady before she went to church! :55:
I mean I can buy a new one at Wallyworld for $20.00, now grant you it is a cheapo but at least I know it is new.

My thoughts for a replacement are centered around size of actual toaster box and the ability to control the heat. Any thoughts here on what works best or what you are using and are you satisfied with it?????
 
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The big issue with any toaster ovens are the wild temp swings that occur. I tried several different toaster ovens over a period of years, and NONE of them were suitable for heat treating.....the tightest I ever saw one hold temp was a 80 degree swing up and down from the setpoint (that's a 160 defree swing). I even tried wrapping one in kawool, hoping it would help, but all it did was overheat the controls and burn them out.

If you're working with carbon steels, I recommend a kitchen type oven! There's likely one in your house, and as long as you clean the quench oil off blades well, it won't stink up the house.....at least not too badly! :)

Personally, I prefer a kitchen type oven to an actual "heat treat" oven when it comes to tempering carbon steels.....for a lack of a better way to say it, the heat is more gentle then a "heat treat" oven. I own two heat treat ovens, but still do my carbon steels in a kitchen oven which is installed in my "hot" shop.....I found it at a yard sale for $150. When I got my first real "heat treat" oven, I noticed that when tempering carbon steels with it, the oxide colors would always be a couple of shades past what I would get at the same temps in the kitchen oven.....Rc testing showed that blades tempered in the "heat treat" oven, at the same temp, were 4-6 points softer then those tempered in the kitchen oven....I suspect that the intense "ramp" of the heat treat oven had something to do with it, but suffice to say that I choose to use the kitchen type oven for my carbon steels, and use the actual "heat treat" ovens for hardening/tempering any stainless steels.

I do have a toaster oven in the finish shop, but it's job is heating kydex, and baking on Gun-Kote, neither of which is nearly as critical as tempering.
 
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I use a plain old, standard size $30 toaster oven and a good accurate oven thermometer so I know what the actual temp is in the oven. My oven holds a steady temp very well, nonetheless, I keep a close eye on it and would not simply stick a knife in there and go to bed. It seems to me that 400 degrees is 400 degrees whether it be inside a toaster oven or a $2,000 kiln.
 
I use a regular toaster oven too, with a nice oven thermometer inside. The knob on mine is about 10-20 degrees off actual, but it only has about a 3 to 5 degree temp swing. The oven I'm using is pretty old and I've noticed the ones at Wallyworld now are made much lighter and cheaper. I'd hit some yard sales and find an older one that's still in good shape.
 
400 degrees is 400 degrees whether it be inside a toaster oven or a $2,000 kiln.

I don't claim to understand it either, but I'm certain in my own mind that it has to do with how the ovens ramp up....and down.

The lowest I can set the ramp conrol on my heat treat ovens is 500 per hour...so that leads me to believe that even if I make the setpoint 400F for example, the heat is still going past that number somehow......otherwise I wouldn't have blades coming out softer then they do at the same setpont in the kitchen type oven. Not sure how it's happening, but it is.
 
I see What you're saying Ed, and it seems possible that the oven may be overshooting 400/500 or whatever the set temp is each time it cycles, thus basically thermal cycling your blade 15 or 20 degrees over the desired temperature. This could be happening on the down side as well, which could potentially double this effect. Perhaps this could happen at a rate that is simply too fast or of too little consequence to register on a simple oven type thermometer. Outside of investing in the heavy duty precision equipment found in the commercial heat treat shops, I think becoming intimate with the nuances of more economical and readily accessible equipment combined with a good blade testing program should be sufficient for satisfactory results. For instance, I have had to drop my tempering Temp by 15 degrees as registered on my equipment in order to achieve proper HT on my blades.
 
Ed you are trying to get me killed..............................:death: Honey I think something is burning in the oven, "No Dear" it's just another knife"! WTH do you mean, I told you after you stunk the house up with the cows horn not to use the kitchen oven again!
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Boy you want something that really stinks warm up a cow horn till it gets warm enough to shape out round!
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Or at least that is about what I envision the conversation going down like!!!!!
:hang::biggrin:

I kind of know what you mean with the toaster oven ramping up. I put my waffles in for the same amount of time and I do them by eye cause some mornings if I wait for the bell to ding,........well one I thought I was having black smoking hockey pucks.

Sadly, I have no room for a stove/oven in my garage, except maybe the toaster variety!! Since I know have my Daughter and her husband and two grandsons living at my house right now, I think I will stick w/the toaster oven. The last one I had worked pretty good to for doing 10750-1085. I had a hole drilled through the case for a thermometer that I sat and monitored. I always had to stay on top of it while HTing. I actually got a lot of clean-up done while waiting out the knives.

That is why I was asking for ideas of what everyone else is using. Hoping some one has discovered on that works better and I won't have to sit and watch like a movie, a very boring movie!! Anyone got a good one, they want to recommend?????????????:s12108:
 
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Personally, I opt for a bigger oven with 4 elements to heat (2 top, 2 bottom) and keep it on the convection bake setting. Mine (I think it's a black and decker, or some other walmart special) seems to hold temp fairly consistently. I keep an oven thermometer inside just to make sure.

I've also heard of guys putting a large chunk of steel in the bottom of the oven to help hold heat.

BTW, don't rely on the dial for temp settings. Use a separate thermometer.
 
Honey I think something is burning in the oven

I had to smile at that one! I used to always use the kitchen oven, until the old thing finally went out. Cindy and I were at Sears, shopping for a new kitchen stove....she was with one salesman talking about how things looked, and I was with another asking "which one of these ovens holds the tightest temp tolerance?".

I asked him to steer here towards that one, and as luck would have it, we ended up buyingit! (I'm thinking "Oh Happy Day!"). They load it into the pickup for us, and we head for home.....inside I'm smiling from ear to ear. About half way home Cindy looks at me and says "YOU are not cooking knives in my new oven!"
I got away with it for a few months, then one day I didn't clean the quench oil off the blades well enough.......she came home and the house smelled of burnt oil.....that's how I ended up with my own kitchen oven in the shop. Sometime ya just gotta turn lemons into lemonade! :)
 
Ed, its like the old saying goes, Happy Wife Happy Life! Or if Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!

The cow horn thing, I was making powder horns for my black powder rifles, and I got one too hot and the whole house stunk and nothing I was doing seemed to alleviate it! She came home and I had all the windows and the doors open and I really detest all those frilly scented candles that most women like but I had everyone in the house burning!

She walked in and goes, "the back door is open, and in one motion looks and says so is the front door, and all the windows, and why are all the candles burning, and what the he!! is that God awful smell"??? She got all that in, in one breath and under 2sec. Now I do all my powder horns outside on my fish cooker! I got the ole you are out of here!:s11798::biggrin:

I know what you are saying about the oven but right now I got no place for one and can't really use the one in the house with all the family I got living here right now. My Daughter and her husband sold there house, so until they can close on the new one we got a house full.

So thus the search for a good toaster oven!!!
 
I'm actually currently researching oven for tempering (prepping for my first HT) as well! but confused about pros and cons of electric toaster vs. electric oven

I'm working mainly with D2 and D3

i tried straightening a blade once in kitchen oven, the pain on the clamps burnt, my mother was not happy let me tell ya!!!
 
Plain old toaster ovens are not too good that's for sure, just as Ed says with wild temperature swings. I took an el cheapo toaster oven from Good Will, put a firebrick inside to help add a bit of mass mass, then used a $20 PID controller (that one was ºC only, have now changed to a $40 Auber for ºF readings), that allows that toaster oven to hold ±1ºF once it's stabilized. I put the TC thru the back of toaster oven with tip about an inch above brick so the temperature control is right at the blade.

I'm sure salt bath is better, but this works pretty good. Rc tests come out just about where they should.

Ken H>
 
I'm actually currently researching oven for tempering (prepping for my first HT) as well! but confused about pros and cons of electric toaster vs. electric oven

I'm working mainly with D2 and D3

i tried straightening a blade once in kitchen oven, the pain on the clamps burnt, my mother was not happy let me tell ya!!!


Even though I am looking for a toaster oven at present due to cost, maybe I can answer this.

The toaster oven is more likely to not hit and hold a temp, due to the fact that they are just not built for that kind of quality. They tend to ramp up to temperature and then when they hit that temp the thermometer will shut it down only to ramp back up again. The big problem with a toaster oven is that often during the ramp up and cool down, it overshoots the desired temp and fall under it during the cool down. They have little to know insulation and that doesn't help either.

An oven on a stove as long as the element is working will hit and hold a temp much more consistently. However the older and oven gets the more likely that when you set it to say 400* it may actually be running at 450*. So an external temperature gauge or one hanging on the oven rack is a good idea to monitor temperature.

So in short a toaster oven is cheap and takes up very little space, even with an external source of temperature monitoring it is more likely to miss the temp desired but by keeping a close eye on it you can make do. Runs usually off of 110V.

The oven is large and well insulated and is more expensive, however it does a better job of hitting and holding a consistent temp! The big problem again may be you will need an external source of temperature monitoring to insure you are hitting the correct temperature! Runs usually off of 220V.

A proper heat treat oven is best as it will usually will fit in a small space and once set-up, will hit and hold the desired temp with little monotoring, but are very expensive initial investment! In the long run it is piece of mind for the money. Some models are 110V most are 220V.

So there is the story in a nutshell and having said all that I am still looking for a good toaster oven at present, because of cost, space, and I don't have another 220V hook-up available at this time.

SHOKR
Just re-read your post: and as far as working with D2 & D3 it will depend on there HT temps. I do not know enough about those steels to advice as to which way you need to go. A toaster oven will usually reach a temp of 450* but not sure how that plays into the HTing of D2 & D3!
 
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I did a google search on "accurate+small+oven" and came across some interesting information, but it also has lead me to believe I can make a better oven for tempering knives than I can find on the shelf. I need one big enough to temper sword blades anyway, since I'm in the process of forging a 32 incher....:) As it stands, my idea is to have it insulated with kaowool and filled with a row of firebricks to help minumize temperature fluctuations, one for regular blades under 20", one for the big stuff. I'd like to be able to reach 700f for tempering springs, and I've yet to find a regular oven that can do that....
 
George I tried your search prameters and not sure if this what you were speaking of but,..............

A Note on Temperature Control

Here is a tip on thermostats in toaster ovens. They aren’t very accurate! All countertop ovens are fairly “low tech”. The plus or minus on the thermostat can be as much as 54 degrees for a manual control oven. That is a total variation of 108 degrees! Digitally controlled ovens are better, but still not great, plus or minus 27 degrees. For most needs, this is not a problem. But if you are doing some serious food prep or baking, we recommend getting an oven thermometer and experimenting with your oven to get a feel for the thermostat in your oven.

George I can see why you are thinking of building, if I weren't burnt out on building things, well.....................
 
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C Craft

Thanks!

Temper temps for D2range rrom 400-500

I bought to thermometers today just needt he oven lol

I have HT oven I just bought, but I want to temper in another oven. Brion Tomberlin advised me to do some test runs to figure out things.
Most ppl I asked advised me to get toaster oven, but I read comparison online between electric and toaster ovens which made me rethink the oven type.

(I stopped tuping, had to do some things including checking out some ovens)
I was going to say I was going to get toaster oven and be done with it

The store I check had larger ovens (42 & 48 liter) that had a fan on the side, im guessing that moght be good for distributing the heat
They were bit more expensive but if it does the trick its worth it
Didnt find any digital electric ovens tho, all the digital were microwaves
 
Toaster ovens are about the best buy for the buck of any for tempering below 450F - They can be had from yard sales and Good Will for $5 to $10 most any time. By adding a firebrick to inside for mass, adding a PID controller ($20 to $50), you've got a very good tempering oven that will hold temperature with less than a 3F swing.... even less. My toaster oven holds a more stable temperature in the 400F range than the EverHeat oven I've got. The display on the EverHeat shows pretty good, but putting an external TC right at the blades during tempering cycle shows the EverHeat doesn't hold as steady a temperature as the toaster oven using a PID controller.

Ken H>
 
Ken you got any pics on your toaster conversion w/PID controller???? I would love to see it!!
 
Well, it's a very simple affair, but I did take a pic this morning for you.

Toaster_PID-a.jpg

As you can see it's just a simple toaster oven (I think the wife paid $5 for it at Good Will) with a firebrick laying inside. I'd think any brick to add mass would work just fine. The PID controller is an Auber, looking at rear panel of oven you can see the TC probe mounted. As I said, it holds a more steady temperature at 400ºF than does the everheat I've got. The TC probe tip being located right at the blade is one thing that helps the blade hold a much more accurate temperature, while in the Everheat the TC probe tip is well above the blade.

Why don't you ride over some day and take a look at it, watch it work and hold it's temperature and how long it takes to stabilize - you're not that far away. Calvin also has a toaster oven he rigged up like this for tempering blades. for tempering SS backsprings I use the Everheat since over 1,000ºF is required for backsprings.

Ken H>
 
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