need help sharpening blades

AJH_Knives

Well-Known Member
So i sent my first 3 knives to a guy to sharpen them, well it was a disaster, he did it by hand, and put too many scratches in the blades, and you cold not shave hair with it. So the next 3 knives went to a shop that sharpens things for a living, he did it on a belt sander at 22 1/2 degrees.. still not shaving sharp. I guess I have to learn how to do it.. so can some one help me out here, how do you get a razor sharp knife? any videos you can point me too.. I am so frustrated.
 
I have been doing all of my knives by hand with the wicked edge system and they are hair poppers. Where in Colorado are you? I would be happy to show you how I do it.
 
Hello,
I don't know who ether of these folks were and the job I do will shave hair but i need to say that shaving hair is NOT always a indicator of a great knife sharpening job. It can be a indicator but remember that shaving is a push cut and a knife is primarily a draw cut. I have a book at my shop you should get a copy of that spells out many facts and techniques for home sharpening.

I will repost with the name etc for ya in about 10 hours.

Laurence

www.westsidesharpening.com
 
I'm not a professional sharpening guy. I have been sharpening my own knives, by hand, for about 30 years. I've learned quite a bit along the way and still continue to learn.

I have arrived at a skill level that does not require guides. I know systems like "wicked edge, lansky, and other types" can produce excellent results, but I can produce better results, by hand. By hand, I've been able to develop edges that will shave hair for their full length and slice paper near effortlessly. Beyond that, I've personally produced edges (with steel and hardening that will accept improved edge geopmetry) that will push cut tissue paper and cut an entire corner off a big-city phonebook.

By far, my preferred method is Japanese style water stones. Here are some lessons I've learned along the way:

1. About 95% of grinding (metal removal) part of sharpening occurs not at the edge, but just behind it. This is where the cut efficiency of most knives can be greatly improved. Sometimes I take a new bevel all the way to a point, sometimes I put an intentional micro-bevel there. Depends on the knife, intended use and quality of the finished blade steel itself.

2. I don't like the "jagged edge cuts better" school of thought. To me, these are unfinished edges that pull cut (actually micro-tear) through materials. I like polished edges and finer grades of Japanese water stones provide this.

3. Learn how to strop a blade correctly. Leather backed with hardwood works for almost everything. Not really required after a fine water stone, but will quickly improve the egde, bring it back from a bit of use and improve the finish.

4. Learn to develop, identify and observe the burr and how to remove it. Lots of internet bungle out there about this. You should have a burr at each stage of sharpening / honing. In the final stages, very fine stones or stropping, the burr may be impossible to see and feel; it should then be removed by pulling the edge through hard felt or soft wood. Hard felt is best in my experience.

5. I never use a butcher steel on my knives. It ruins them, in my opinion.

I use King brand water stones. Relatively inexpensive and consistent. They are not "natural," they are synthetically produced. Much the same result can be had with belts. I like the labor and feel involved with water stones and somehow think the steel prefers the cooler treatment (less heat) vs. the belts.

Below are a few photos of my near-everyday companion neck knife, a Murray Carter about 7.25" overall. It has a laminated blade with white #1 as the core clad in mild stainless. It is a forged and heat treated blade, the core is very hard. Yes, I use it. Yes, I've even chipped this high-performance edge (not hard to do) and repaired it too. This blade, like other good blades, responds very well to the above methods. New razor blades are not as sharp - really. Hard for me to photograph well, but I tried to catch the glint from the working edge; it is small and maybe only a degree or two more obtuse than the secondary bevel. Also, hand sharpening makes all angles very hard to measure since, by simple physics, "by hand" sharpening results in a slight convex shape to all bevels. Personally, I think that's a very good thing.

Hoping this is of some help for you - kind regards - redleg

I think you can "click" for a larger photo.


1095, edc style fixed blade, custom, new from maker exept for the improved edge


Benchmade, Mini Grip Ritter, m4 first run. User, but improved edge, with improved geometry, cuts like a laser.
 
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I've sent my last few knives to a guy in TX that I met through another forum. I've been VERY happy with the results on all my knives. PM me if you want any details...

Personally, I have a Lansky and need new stones. It works well for me. Lately, I've been doing convex edges on the grinder, and now that I have Norax belts from 100 to 5, I can put a near mirrored convex edge on my knives. I'm a huge fan!
 
Get a copy of this book.

The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening. by John Juranitch.
Worth every penny to get you started on doing your own sharpening and dispel many myths etc... Over 250 Pictures and drawings.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 
thanks guys, I have been watching videos on youtube,guys using their belt sanders to sharpen the blades. I would like to learn that way. Currently i wam working on a motor control that will cut the speed of my (harbor freight ) bench sander in half so I can use that to sharpen.
 
Amen!!! Very well put and I love that Carter. Murray makes a heck of a knife... even now as a knife maker, I still reach for his 6 sun Funi every day when in the kitchen.

I'm not a professional sharpening guy. I have been sharpening my own knives, by hand, for about 30 years. I've learned quite a bit along the way and still continue to learn.

I have arrived at a skill level that does not require guides. I know systems like "wicked edge, lansky, and other types" can produce excellent results, but I can produce better results, by hand. By hand, I've been able to develop edges that will shave hair for their full length and slice paper near effortlessly. Beyond that, I've personally produced edges (with steel and hardening that will accept improved edge geopmetry) that will push cut tissue paper and cut an entire corner off a big-city phonebook.

By far, my preferred method is Japanese style water stones. Here are some lessons I've learned along the way:

1. About 95% of grinding (metal removal) part of sharpening occurs not at the edge, but just behind it. This is where the cut efficiency of most knives can be greatly improved. Sometimes I take a new bevel all the way to a point, sometimes I put an intentional micro-bevel there. Depends on the knife, intended use and quality of the finished blade steel itself.

2. I don't like the "jagged edge cuts better" school of thought. To me, these are unfinished edges that pull cut (actually micro-tear) through materials. I like polished edges and finer grades of Japanese water stones provide this.

3. Learn how to strop a blade correctly. Leather backed with hardwood works for almost everything. Not really required after a fine water stone, but will quickly improve the egde, bring it back from a bit of use and improve the finish.

4. Learn to develop, identify and observe the burr and how to remove it. Lots of internet bungle out there about this. You should have a burr at each stage of sharpening / honing. In the final stages, very fine stones or stropping, the burr may be impossible to see and feel; it should then be removed by pulling the edge through hard felt or soft wood. Hard felt is best in my experience.

5. I never use a butcher steel on my knives. It ruins them, in my opinion.


I use King brand water stones. Relatively inexpensive and consistent. They are not "natural," they are synthetically produced. Much the same result can be had with belts. I like the labor and feel involved with water stones and somehow think the steel prefers the cooler treatment (less heat) vs. the belts.

Below are a few photos of my near-everyday companion neck knife, a Murray Carter about 7.25" overall. It has a laminated blade with white #1 as the core clad in mild stainless. It is a forged and heat treated blade, the core is very hard. Yes, I use it. Yes, I've even chipped this high-performance edge (not hard to do) and repaired it too. This blade, like other good blades, responds very well to the above methods. New razor blades are not as sharp - really. Hard for me to photograph well, but I tried to catch the glint from the working edge; it is small and maybe only a degree or two more obtuse than the secondary bevel. Also, hand sharpening makes all angles very hard to measure since, by simple physics, "by hand" sharpening results in a slight convex shape to all bevels. Personally, I think that's a very good thing.

Hoping this is of some help for you - kind regards - redleg

I think you can "click" for a larger photo.


1095, edc style fixed blade, custom, new from maker exept for the improved edge


Benchmade, Mini Grip Ritter, m4 first run. User, but improved edge, with improved geometry, cuts like a laser.
 
hi, my 2 cents
go to ????? hardware and get a Norton Crystalon stone and some WD-40. on the way home, stop at a thrift store and buy a handful of old knives, carbon steel if they have any. get a sharpening book or watch one of the many videos that have been made on the subject. then practice till your arm is sore, take a 5 minute break, practice till your hands cramp, take a break, practice until......
this site has several easy to follow articles about sharpening using a stone and using sandpaper and a mouse pad.
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/
guess this was more like a nickel than toosense.
the old sailor
 
I'm not a professional sharpening guy. I have been sharpening my own knives, by hand, for about 30 years. I've learned quite a bit along the way and still continue to learn.

I have arrived at a skill level that does not require guides. I know systems like "wicked edge, lansky, and other types" can produce excellent results, but I can produce better results, by hand. By hand, I've been able to develop edges that will shave hair for their full length and slice paper near effortlessly. Beyond that, I've personally produced edges (with steel and hardening that will accept improved edge geopmetry) that will push cut tissue paper and cut an entire corner off a big-city phonebook.

By far, my preferred method is Japanese style water stones. Here are some lessons I've learned along the way:

1. About 95% of grinding (metal removal) part of sharpening occurs not at the edge, but just behind it. This is where the cut efficiency of most knives can be greatly improved. Sometimes I take a new bevel all the way to a point, sometimes I put an intentional micro-bevel there. Depends on the knife, intended use and quality of the finished blade steel itself.

2. I don't like the "jagged edge cuts better" school of thought. To me, these are unfinished edges that pull cut (actually micro-tear) through materials. I like polished edges and finer grades of Japanese water stones provide this.

3. Learn how to strop a blade correctly. Leather backed with hardwood works for almost everything. Not really required after a fine water stone, but will quickly improve the egde, bring it back from a bit of use and improve the finish.

4. Learn to develop, identify and observe the burr and how to remove it. Lots of internet bungle out there about this. You should have a burr at each stage of sharpening / honing. In the final stages, very fine stones or stropping, the burr may be impossible to see and feel; it should then be removed by pulling the edge through hard felt or soft wood. Hard felt is best in my experience.

5. I never use a butcher steel on my knives. It ruins them, in my opinion.

I use King brand water stones. Relatively inexpensive and consistent. They are not "natural," they are synthetically produced. Much the same result can be had with belts. I like the labor and feel involved with water stones and somehow think the steel prefers the cooler treatment (less heat) vs. the belts.

Below are a few photos of my near-everyday companion neck knife, a Murray Carter about 7.25" overall. It has a laminated blade with white #1 as the core clad in mild stainless. It is a forged and heat treated blade, the core is very hard. Yes, I use it. Yes, I've even chipped this high-performance edge (not hard to do) and repaired it too. This blade, like other good blades, responds very well to the above methods. New razor blades are not as sharp - really. Hard for me to photograph well, but I tried to catch the glint from the working edge; it is small and maybe only a degree or two more obtuse than the secondary bevel. Also, hand sharpening makes all angles very hard to measure since, by simple physics, "by hand" sharpening results in a slight convex shape to all bevels. Personally, I think that's a very good thing.

Hoping this is of some help for you - kind regards - redleg

I think you can "click" for a larger photo.


1095, edc style fixed blade, custom, new from maker exept for the improved edge


Benchmade, Mini Grip Ritter, m4 first run. User, but improved edge, with improved geometry, cuts like a laser.

Butchers steels maintain a edge, they do not create one. Pass on the rough grooved steels. These are a hold over from about 50-100 years ago on lower RC carbon knives.
For modern hardness knives of Carbon or stainless of RC 57-64 you want a smooth, Ceramic or my choice a 600 Grit diamond steel.

If you use a steel for a few swipes in one of these configurations you will get about twice as long out of your sharpening job, So you have to remove less metal so your knives will last longer.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 
Laurence,

I agree with your ceramic, smooth comments. I guess I should clarify my comments about butcher steels and most rods.

Any small diameter rod will contact the blade edge at a single point, i.e. a tangent point to the circular cross section of the rod itself and the (generally) flat/straight blade edge. While butcher steels will straighten an edge and diamond or ceramic rods will remove metal, the contact point is still just that, a contact point.

It is very easy to over-pressure that contact point which, many times, will create more chipping / micro-chipping than desired. The rolled edges that are straightened in the process of "steeling" often break and create an edge of mini to micro serrations. Of course this keeps a meat slicer in high production and really the purpose of meat slicing is well served.

Abrasive rods, like diamond and ceramic, work well IF the user understands what is going on - especially with the contact point. I like the small Spyderco 2-rod kit. It is small and light enough to put in my backpack. Water stones do not do well on backpack trips, way too heavy to pack for miles. I think the spydie rods are discontinued now though. But, I found that some of my knives, with acute edges and high hardness, the rods will micro-chip the edges with very little pressure applied. These acute angles survive cutting and "adult" use daily. But they can't survive the rod.

I really like stropping for field expedient edge maintenance. Materials needed are light and don't take up much room in a pack. Some abrasive paper, in various grits, can significantly expand the amount of edge repair that can be done in the field for nearly no weight penalty. Of course, the best edge maintenance is a wise user. The advantage here is elimination of the single contact point that any rod-type device has.

While I don't disagree with your steel and abrasive rod statements, I think these items work for most knife users because they never push their own edge geometry to maximum cutting efficiency. And, many knife users are happy with the slicing (pull cut) performance a micro-serrated edge provides. I think most knife users keep that 30-degree plus angle and just try to maintain that.

Too, it must be difficult for even custom makers, to send knives out with an acute angle designed to best serve the quality of the steel they produce. I'm sure feedback from users that are in a steep learning curve will not support all the hard work and pursuit of perfection that went into the blade when it chips on a rod or in use.

Personally, my preference is moving almost entirely away from any rods simply because many of my knives will not like the edge treatment. That's not to say they don't have a place and purpose in our knife-nutty lives.

I'll wrap up by saying that KnifeDogs and a couple other forums have expanded my blade knowledge immensely and I am very thankful for that. It's discussions like this that are more than just entertaining, they are educational and enjoyable.

In particular, I enjoy KnifeDogs because it is a safe and morally "clean" place to learn and contribute. I am not a knife maker, just a passionate blade user and appreciate the makers and other contributors here.

Very kind regards - redleg
 
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Here is an example of a high hardness "user." A typical Spydie, zdp-189 endura. I think we all know these come with a reputatin of being "sharp" right out of the box. You'll notice that this blade is used, I got the side of the blade flopped a bit too far down and scuffed it up on the stones a couple times and it's been used quite a bit (ugly really) but the final edge geomtry is drastically changed and the cutting performance is incredible. This is a truly "scary" sharp knife. You may also notice the tip seems slightly rounded - this happened when I dropped the knife on my concrete garage floor. It put a very small amount of damage to the tip and I ground most of it out, but decided that grinding all of it out would take too much life out of the blade so it remains just slightly blunted and will return to tack-sharp over time. This knife can whittle hair and almost falls through a ripe tomato under its own weight. Got to be careful with this one when shaving arm hair, it will cut you in a blink. I would guess the slight convex edge on this endura to be less than 10 degrees per side with a very small primary bevel on it as well. These all kind of blend together because it is mostly maintained by stropping. I'm sure any rod type device would lessen its cutting performance. I have not experienced any chipping, but then I don't baton wood with it either. I use a forged 8" bowie type blade for that (W2).

Kind regards - redleg
 
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Here's another "user." This is a Jonathan McNees "MCK1" fresh out of my pack from the most recent, and rainy, camping weekend. As you know, it is 1095 differentially heat treated. This knife has been through what most would consider abuse. The hand-stoned and stropped edge is very close to 25 degrees inclusive and it has not seen the slightest roll or chip. Kind of pretty, really.

I owe a debt of gratitude to many on this forum, and honestly some other forums as well. The knife making community has taken my "user" enjoyment and satisfaction to new levels.

:) redleg



 
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