Where to BUY fast Quench like Parks 50?

feraldude

Active Member
So for hardening 1084 I've realized it is important to use a proper quench (thanks all for advice).

So, here's the $100 question...

Does anyone know where I can buy a small amount of Parks #50 or an equivalent fast quench (maybe houghson type k or 3440 etc.). I'm having a heck of a time finding any of them...

thanks,
 
Kelly Cupples sells Parks 50, but I believe you have to buy a 5 gallon bucket.
 
Thanks Ed. Wow that is one side of the country to the other. Yakima, WA. to NW Florida. I may have to find somthing closer due to shipping costs!
I have a brother that was born in Yakima, WA.
 
I can't tell you how much it troubles me to have to say that any more there is no easy answer for this. Just a few years ago I could quickly defeat any argument against not buying a good quench oil based upon availability and price because you could get it and get it cheaper than 5 gallons of any vegetable oil or automotive product. In the last few years a few things have happened- certain quenchant makers decided they didn't want to sell their stuff on the open market anymore and the prices of all oil based things went through the roof, and long with it shipping skyrocketed. So while I know that a well formulated quenchant is the best way to assure consistent quality hardening, I also know that it is not always possible for the regular guy to get anymore.

One of the first things we can do is abandon the fad of fixating on just one oil and expand our searches to a wider number of faster quench oils. I now make it a rule not to even mention Parks #50 without really plugging Houghton international who at least still want to sell us oil, just not always at the prices or quantities we want. Look around out there, internet searches can work for this, and explore the large number of other quench oil makers, just look for something with less than a 9 second quench speed.

Despite what my critics may say, I have never said that if you are using an alternative to quench oil that your product is automatically inferior. I need to lay my cards on the table and explain why I prefer not to even discuss alternative quench mediums if I can avoid it. It is because if ever I have seen a topic that is a true slippery slope that one is it. It seems any time one takes the step to discuss quenchants other than well made quench oils the standards don't just get lowered they get erased entirely and in no time you find yourself discussing things that can only be described as absurd. Many light oils will obtain the speed of a good medium speed quench oil, but quenching effectiveness is not defined solely by speed, if that were the case brine would be the only quenchant we would need. I have found some very light weight automotive fluids that will also do well as a medium speed quenchant, but the health concerns in using them need to be considered.

Viscosity and consistency in thermal extraction rate are critical so thick oils and sludges are just not going to cut it. Canola oil can cool steel, lards and greases cannot, that is kind of common sense. 10W30 is a lubricant not a coolant, it will leave lots of pearlite in your blade, ATF or hydraulic fluid may extract heat better but I don't want it in my lungs or even on my skin.

In short, we are in a bit of a bind these days trying to obtain the best quenching mediums, but that bind does not have to be as bad if we broaden our search between the two extremes of one almost unobtainable quench oil and ineffective or dangerous substitutes. I typed this response because I feel guilty for pushing a product for so many years that now is a problem to easily obtain. In the end all we need to do is make knives on the level we have set for ourselves, be that simply skating a file or killing a specific percentage of pearlite, and then be honest with ourselves and others about it.
 
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I do not remember who right now, maybe Kevin will, but I do remember some outfit sells oils under their own name that are actually Houghton products. McMaster Carr also sells quenching oils and ships anywhere.


Seth
 
Thanks all, I'm in San Diego, CA so it might be far to ship from Yakima...I'll give them a call anyhow...

Is there a McMaster Carr that equals Parks 50?

I'm using 1084 so I figure it is important to get the right quench... When I use 5160 I use more "alternative" oils but for my 1084 I would really like to get it right...
 
I second what Kevin mentioned about not getting fixated on on BRAND......look into the "nuts-n-bolts" of the quenchant. Kevin wouldn't mention Houghton if it wasn't equivalent or better than Parks.....he's just trying to save folks some heartache.....and likely some money.
 
In one of my sophomore engineering classes I finally got absolutely FED up with how my professor was drawing examples of bridges in the board. Now you have to understand that you need to keep your mouth shut in engineering classes because as one of my other professors once said "I know structural engineering and you don't". That really was true. Not very uplifting but true. So, anyway, I couldn't stand it any longer and I raised my hand and said, "why do you always draw bridge structures with a roller skate holding up one side. Everybody knows that bridges don't have roller skates." And do you know what he told me? "yes they do"' he said. He was pretty surprised at my comment so it took him a minute to get reoriented. He said to me, "You live in Lewiston Idaho, right? You know the steel bridge that crosses the Snake River over to Clarkston Washington? Well, I want you to crawl under that bridge on the Washington side and draw me a picture of what you see. That's your homework assignment for this class session." You ain't gonna BELIEVE what I found holding up that big steel bridge - a set of great big steel rollers that were allowed to roll on a greased steel plate. So I think that I have established my credibility when I say that I have some experience with asking stupid questions and blurting out stupid stuff. It is with that fact firmly in mind that I present a statement and ask a question:

When a knife blade is quenched the only thing that happens is that a piece of very hot steel is plunged into a relatively very cold liquid. There are some details that attend this process but that seems to me to capture the essence of the whole thing. Now the object of the exercise is to make the knife blade hard. There are some details that attend this also but that, again, is the essence. Any liquid will work as a quenchant and as the liquids vary so vary the end results. In the vast, vast majority of cases it is never known what has happened to the steel at the molecular level. The blade maker simply skates a file on it, and in a series of tasks, finishes the knife. I know that there are details that I have not enumerated, I know that I have simplified this process to the point of skeletal and I know that ALL of the readers of this tirade are as cussed as rattlesnakes but I am an engineer and I need some information that I can use in my shop where I make knives that people use everyday. So. I use 1095 mostly. Sometimes I use O1. I have used 1085, L6 and 15N20. Is there a list or can a list be compiled that tells me what are the best, next best and next next best quenchants to use for these several steels. Such a list would look like this:

1095 best: Parks 50 / next best: Scooters Real Good Knife Oil / next next best: goat urine

O1 best: WD - 40 / next best: holy water / next next best: lard

Please, be forthcoming. Don't spare my feelings even though they are delicate and refined. But please don't give me something I can not use in my shop. I am a civil engineer. I deal in concrete and wood and steel. Real things. Things that I can cuss when I stumble over them in the dark. Thank you all, as usual, in advance for your help. I await your collective illumination. Respectfully, Nicholas Jasper
 
gnique, don't feel at all isolated in oversimplifying the concept, you are in good and plentiful company, and it is the oversimplification that has resulted in so much of the confusion and controversy with this topic. Here are two examples of misleading extremes-

1. The process is too much and so touchy that only Park Metallurgical #50 quench will get you to the perfect blade, get that stuff and you don’t need to know all the ins and outs, it is so wonderful it will solve all the problems.

2. Heck, all you have to do is cool the blade quick so anything will work, even the mud behind my shop can cause a file to skate and that is all you need.

Both of these approaches are flawed and oddly for the same reason, they assume a simple solution can replace the need for detailed knowledge and skills concerning the process. Our business has long suffered under the overwhelming desire and belief in magic bullets or shortcuts to success, when true success in knifemaking is no different than any other thing in life, it involves gaining knowledge and skills through massive amounts of study and practice.

The number one idea that keeps people from improving their quenching methods is the oversimplification that it is all about speed of cooling; if that were the case all we would need is a 9% brine solution for everything, it is hard to get much faster. But a true successful quench is incredibly complex and would take pages to even scratch the surface, so I myself will need to resort to an oversimplification- the most effective quench is one that gets you the maximum hardness via martensite percentage, without undue thermal shocking of the steel that is unnecessary.

Each steel will have its own sweet spot in heating for the quench and each steel will have it own sweet spot in the cooling rate.

The best I can give you for the simple guide is this-

Fast quench oils (6-9 seconds): W1, W2, 1095, 1084, 1080, 1075, 15n20
Medium speed quench oils (9-12 seconds): 01, L6, 52100, 5160, 8670m


ARGGHH! I was editing to give you some other information but it did it again! What key or combination of keys on the right hand side of the keyboard causes the browser to go "back" and loses all that you have typed? I hit it all the time, and it is maddening! Let me collect my thoughts and get a handle on my frustration before commin at this again.
 
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Thank you, Kevin. As usual, the answer generated more questions. Let's say you buy five gallons of fast oil and five gallons of medium oil. It follows that the medium won't work as well for 1095 as will the fast oil but how about fast oil for the medium steels? What happens when you quench, say, 52100 or O1 in fast oil? I have done this (many times). What took place that I was unaware of? Also, when (if ever) does a quenchant wear out? Is there a way to tell? I have used the same two or three gallons of oil to quench 30 or 40 blades. It is about three years old, left in a covered pan in my shop and has bits of metal, flakes of scale and pieces of high temp mortar in the bottom of the pan. The color has gone from clear to about the color of weak tea. It still seems to work but is there any way to tell if it is still as good as new? I know that I sound like a four year old but the fascination of asking questions does not seem to have abated with me. My youngest son is the master of asking interesting questions. I once told him that blackberries were spread by the birds. I told him that the birds ate the blackberries and that the seeds were designed to go through the birds' system without harm and that they came out in the bird poop ready to sprout and become blackberry bushes. He thought for a moment and asked me: "Dad do the birds KNOW that they are planting blackberries when they poop?" I am still working on that one. It raises all sorts of questions dealing with cognition and intent.
 
Don't stop now.
I am using Mc Carr 11 sec on 1075-1080 @ 1/8" thick.
Now, if that 11 sec oil will quench 1/2" steel in 11 sec, want 1/8" steel be alot faster?
I don't try to be so dumb, I was born like that. [Shut up Murph]
Your thoughts please?
Jerry
 
ARGGHH! I was editing to give you some other information but it did it again! What key or combination of keys on the right hand side of the keyboard causes the browser to go "back" and loses all that you have typed? I hit it all the time, and it is maddening! Let me collect my thoughts and get a handle on my frustration before commin at this again.


LOVING the conversation so far gentlemen.

I use Parks #50 for everything, but I also restrict myself to steels that perform very well with a fast quench, 1084, 1095, W1, W2

and Kevin, the Keystroke combination your having a problem with is holding the Alt key while hitting an arrow key (Left to go back, Right to go forward)
 
...and Kevin, the Keystroke combination your having a problem with is holding the Alt key while hitting an arrow key (Left to go back, Right to go forward)

Well I'll be...!!! I just tried it and that is exactly what has lost a significant number of my long detailed posts over the years when I didn't first type them in Word for spell checking and then paste them to a forum. Thank you Stephan!!!

My style of typing is to assault the keyboard with a flurry of random keystrokes of the general area of the letter I want and then do a massive cleanup later... in case you couldn't tell from reading my posts:3: Without your input I doubt I ever could have tracked down this problem, and not every post need be formally typed on MS Word first. Thank you, once again for saving what is left of my sanity.
 
Well I'll be...!!! I just tried it and that is exactly what has lost a significant number of my long detailed posts over the years when I didn't first type them in Word for spell checking and then paste them to a forum. Thank you Stephan!!!

My style of typing is to assault the keyboard with a flurry of random keystrokes of the general area of the letter I want and then do a massive cleanup later... in case you couldn't tell from reading my posts:3: Without your input I doubt I ever could have tracked down this problem, and not every post need be formally typed on MS Word first. Thank you, once again for saving what is left of my sanity.


no problem, I used to be a programmer for a living and to preserve my sanity had to learn how to navigate a computer without touching the mouse, I became VERY familiar with hotkeys, shortcuts, etc.
 
kevin did i miss any thing what was the name of the 1 / 2 best qeunchents for the fast and the medium i came in late to this
 
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