Jigs: Curse or Cure?

Rock

Well-Known Member
I had an interesting discussion at dinner Saturday night of the Blade Show with Don Cowles (my dad) and David Broadwell about jigs. Both were adamantly against them!

David held up his hands and said, "These are my jigs." They both were of a mind that they were the only jigs you needed or should use and the trick was plenty of practice practice practice. They said using a physical jig will not get the job done right on knives with more complex curves or styles and learning to make knives while using jigs was in many ways limiting your evolution as a knifemaker. I am paraphrasing a bit, but I thought it was a warning worth heeding and an interesting topic for further discussion. huh1

I don't think a child should get velcro shoe straps before they can tie their own shoes, digital watches before they can tell time, or calculators before they can do basic math. I'm not being old fashioned. Learning to tie ones shoes teaches hand-eye coordination, manual dexterity, process, and builds confidence. Math teaches everyone, even non-scientists and engineers, to think. Sometimes progress is progress. I can't read smoke signals worth a hoot. :D
 
I agree with your dad and Mr. Broadwell. If you want to be able to grind whatever idea comes to mind, you are best to do your grinding freehand. Yes, there is a learning curve and you will toss a few blades when starting out but thats a small price to pay for not having to design and make a new jig every time you want to make a different style of knife.

Patience and practice doing it freehand will pay off in the end. Try to make a jig to do a grind like a nightmare grind on a Strider and youll see where the limitations of a jig are.

Jigs work great for production work, but most of us aren't grinding the exact same blade size and shape 100's of times in a row.
 
Jigs just may be tools that the maker decides if, when, where and how to use them. There're lots of other jigs besides blade grinding ones. Many folder makers will time their locks and springs with jigs as well as precision dimension stock. The plenty of practice part makes a lot of sense. It might take hard earned experience to decide when to use a jig well.

Just thoughts, Craig
 
My one year old boy has velcro shoes. I think he would really struggle to tie his own laces. I think it would be a bit unfair to make him do without until he can learn to tie knots. ;)
 
My two cents

As I see it we use jigs to do many tasks every day. I’m a computer guy been working with them for over 30 years. Suppose I told you that you had to learn to spell before you could use a spell checker :( or learn HTML before you could post on a Knife forum. Let’s go a little farther and say you have to be able to build your own car before you can drive or even learn to cook before eating. Like Craig said a jig is just a tool and like any tool there is a proper way to use it. Not all of us on this forum are ever going to be anything other than recreational knife makers. Jigs just help us to try different styles and let us produce a better product with less effort and time. Just like a spell checker lets you express yourself without having to know how to spell.
 
I don't use a jig. I think a jig is part of the learning curve not the whole journey. I would agree that it gives recreational makers a leg up.
 
Just letting everyone know to keep any arguments to a minimum. And argue nicely!

This can be a very touchy subject and we do not need this thread closed.
 
Jigs for grinding=no. Jigs for fitting guards=yes. IMO
 
there are some strong feelings about this but I'm not sure why. I guess because if one camp says you don't need jigs and the other says you do, there is lack of respect implied some how. The reality is there are jigs used by *a lot* of people in virtually every aspect of knife making. It's a common industrial technique to improve production and quality.

It seems most of the debate comes from learning to grind free hand vs. using a jig of some sort. I can see the value in learning how to grind free hand as that is how I've learned but I can also see the value in not having to grind a couple hundred blades before I got something I could really appreciate too had I used a jig. Many (most) veteran knife makers will tell a noob to learn free hand first, then use a jig if you want. That's how they did it, that's how the noobs should do it. Free hand grinding is a higher skill level it seems. Learn the higher skill first so you have that to draw from. Maybe noobs should be encouraged to learn grinding with a jig first and then learn the higher skill as a natural progression?

My opinion, FWIW, is a maker should learn free hand grinding at some point but if they want to use jigs, I think that is fine also. I use a tool rest often. It speeds things along for me. I don't get a better grind, I get a faster grind. I can free hand the grind just good as using the tool rest. If I add a jig into the process, I won't get a better grind but I will get a faster one and sometimes that is good.
 
If one is using a jig to accomplish something that they are not practised enough to do by hand, then a jig is a crutch. Otherwise it is just another piece of tooling that helps insure repeatability and increase output volume.

The same could be said of using a pattern to scribe profiles before cutting them out. I bet there was a time when scribing a center-line on the edge of your blank was considered to be cheating by the old timers who learned to line everything up by eyeball. For my money's worth, if one is truly a "hand-made purist", then forging and filing is the only way to go.
 
I built a jig to grind a better flat grind. I ground my first 14 blades free hand and I will continue to grind free hand. The jig I built showed me exactly how flat a flat grind should be. There are some knives I will still use the jig with and alot I will not. I also plan to Free hand hollow grinds as soon as I get my grinder built.
 
Ernie,

One of the things that repeatedly sets you apart from many new makers is teachability. You are willing to learn and try new things and by no means do you habitually take the easier, softer way. It shows in your work and your work ethic.

David commented about some new makers asking how to do things, and then not only flat out rejecting the advice, but arguing about it. That type of arrogance will make the fountains of knowledge dry up in a heartbeat! The majority of the folks here are very teachable.

A few of the things I have learned (often the hard way) are:

Take what you want and leave the rest.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Success leaves clues.

Never call a lady police officer "Fatboy".
 
THe only jig, per say, I have used thus far has been a file guide (used it once). Don't get me wrong, I've considered it and feel that if you want to it's your decision. THe main reason I haven't used one is that I feel I need to learn to do it freehand for my own personal fulfillment.

With that being said, I feel it's up to the maker. Make the decision that is going to give you the best "warm fuzzy" about your work. As long as you are proud of the product that you produced at the end of the day, does anyone else's opinion really matter?

Just my $0.02 guys/gals.
 
This is often a topic of much contention between factions. However, I think if it's discussed without folks getting angry, it can be a very good learning topic.

Do I encourage people to grind with jigs? No. Do I use jigs? Yes.

Let me explain.....unless an individual has the mechanics down, and some experience under their belt(s), jigs can cause more harm than good. Why? Although there is a small learning curve associated with how to use a given grinding jig, for the most part they tend to create a situation where the individual using them does not have to learn much (I'm speaking of beginning/newer makers here). Although a grinding jig might give some that instant gratification they desire, it's very often times a severe limiting factor in the future. I've seen it MANY times...an individual who started out grinding with a jig becomes accustom to the results they achieve, are not willing to settle for anything less, and rather than apply the time and effort to learn some free hand grinding, remained very limited in the knives they designed/make....all because they could only grind one or two blade profiles by using the grinding jig. Where as IF they had learned to free hand grind, their creative abilities would be nearly limitless.
In other words, by a beginner using a grinding jig, it creates a dependency situation...the individual simply cannot, or will not grind a blade without the jig, and in the process robs themselves of learning one of the greatest skills in knifemaking. I guess in a nutshell I'm talking about versatility. Often times a jig can produce one type of grind, on one type of knife profile...learning to grind freehand gives an individual MUCH more versatility in that they can adapt to just about any knife profile imaginable.

OK, now for the second part. I mentioned that I do use jigs.....however, there is nothing that I can do with a jig, that I cannot do free hand. All the jig allows me to do is save time in certain situations. For example, when I produce stock removal, stainless steel EBKs. With a jig I can rough grind these knives in 1/4 of the time it takes me to do is freehand, but I can still do it freehand if necessary. In that instance it's no different than the air hammer or the press that I have in the blacksmith shop. I can do all the operations of those machines by hand, the machines just save me tons of time. The other reason is that I realize that as I get older, and my body starts downhill, I may not be capable of being as steady as I was in my youth. In short, I'm planning for the inevitable.

Jigs and fixtures used for grinding, are very often a double edge sword...and as with most things in knifemaking, if you choose to become dependent on a jig, your going to give something else up. It's up the the individual if the pros outweigh the cons....but for me, I would much rather be able to grind any blade profile a customer throws at me, rather than have to make up an excuse as to why I can't or won't build them the blade they want simply because I know that my grinding jig will not allow me to do it.

So, in the end it's really going to be up to each individual. My opinion is to learn to grind freehand. It will make you much more versatile, much more confident, and in the end will only make you a better knifemaker. If you're going to use jigs, use them for redundant operations, where they are a time saver, rather than a crutch.
 
The whole world considers a true craftsman to be the person who makes a beautiful piece by hand.

I showed my brother-in-law a bowie I made several years ago and he took it to his shop(he is a machinist)and duplicated it using his equipment. It looked every bit as good as mine and he had way less time in it. It was his first knife by the way.

If you didn't know how the two knives were made who would you call the craftsman?

I started out forging and filing my knives many years ago as a hobby. I graduated to some stock removal after I bought a homemade knife grinder at an auction. Later I made some jigs to help me. I found they limited me to very few knife blade shapes, so I used the jigs some and hand ground the rest.

I agree you should learn to hand grind or you will be limited on what knives you can make. This discussion could go on forever and it won't ever be settled. I say make your knives however works for you and be happy. The end results will tell the story.

I still think you're missing out if you don't try it by hand:)

Larry
 
Ed, your post popped up as I submitted mine. You said exactly what I was thinking and I don't think it could have been said better.

Every one needs to remember, we are trying to help those who are starting out to be the best they can be.

Larry
 
I think a thing to be wary of is too great of a dependence on our tools. Anyone can go out and buy a half dozen solid dependable, well thought out and executed production knives for less than they can set up a decent shop. I think the feeling of satisfaction would be much greater spending the time to make a knife by hand and learning those skills first. I don't think the truly great makers are working on volume, but exclusivity; making a limited amount of extremely beautiful custom knives. Productivity is certainly important when making a living, but the basic skills well learned will take you further faster overall.
 
I have never used a jig for grinding,although I sometimes think of the many many
blades that I have thrown away or just stuck a handle on and give them to friends
or family.I feel it is a personal thing,and I am sure if I had one that worked,there would be times that I would use it.I would like to fix me a work rest.I see where it
would be a big help.


I also would like to have a jig to help me do the final edge,to get it sharp.
This is where I have my biggest problem.
Anyone have any suggestions?

God bless,Keith
 
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