Choils and sharpening.

T

The Tourist

Guest
I am amzed at the decorative work I see here on KD. And I also understand that many of these knives are works of art and probably never going to be utilized as EDCs. But I have a question/comment/observation, and I'd like some opinions.

If the knife is going to be used, there is the expection that it is going to go dull. And when the knife is a major investment, lots of guys come to me. I have found that a small choil in front of the ricasso allows a stone to be postioned right to the end of tthe bevel.

In fact, I often re-profile standard folders with a "squared off" edge in case the client wants to maintain his own knife. I have a sprecial set of half size Edge Pro waterstones to 'chase out' the remnants of the small fillet in front of the ricasso.

If you are an observer of knives similar to the Graham Brothers line, you will see this tiny choil. Yikes, it makes my job so much easier!

Is this feature hard to produce for one-man cutlers? Does this feature detract from some esthetic to which I'm not aware? In your opinion, does it weaken that portion of the edge, or simply require a difficult milling process?

Here's an example of a "squared off edge" I use on a re-profiled style sharpening.

002-1.jpg


Here's a small standard feature on a production knife that makes my life so much easier.

011.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I like a definite "end" on both ends of my blades. I would prefer the blade does not fizzle out into the ricassso. It makes starting to sharpen the edge akward for me and I feel like I'm getting a list or tilt in the start of my first pass on the stone. A definitive end to the edge, or a choil are my first two preferences with a squared edge to ricasso being my third. MHO Dozier
 
Good point Les. However, I am not talking a major modification, I mean a slightly relieved portion allow a stone to make a "full travel" pass on the bevel.

In fact, my squared off edges have no choil, at all. I just have made some room for the corner of the stone.

You must realize I am speaking as a tinker, not a blade designer or a cutler. I understand that most of the time we are discussing an art form. And I would never put a stone on most of the knives here!

But there are some custom cutlers--and I would put Jon Graham in that category--that build a singular, custom, and client-designed knife for immediate use. First day of ownership will bring a scratch and a degradation in edge quality.

My comments refer more to the longer life of a product.

wdtorque said:
I would prefer the blade does not fizzle out into the ricassso.

Sir, I am still rather new here, and I honestly do not know if you are a cutler or a consumer. Does your statetment reflect manufacturing or use as a client?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sir, ouch. Now I feel old, though I know no ill intent was meant, just the opposite.
It is hard getting older at times.
My statement is from a personnal viewpoint, I guess I am a consurer that has more knives than a "normal" person and sharpens many more knives than he owns. Many of my friends ask me to sharpen their blades and I remember sharpening my grandmother's knives on every visit to her house. Really fond memories of her and I in her kitchen with me and and an old stone ,with 10 -15 knives laid out on the counter, just talking and visiting. She talked, I listened and sharpened, I sure I learned alot from her and I do miss her tremendously.
I like to start my blade flat when sharpening and it is impossible to do with a curved edge abutting the ricasso. Just my opinion. Ok, lunch is over. Back out to this beautiful day. Dozier

ps. if you haven't done a tutorial on sharpening here Tourist I would love to see one?
 
I'm a picky son-of-a-gun and I have this crazy idea that a knife's edge should be truly sharp and keen, from the plunge all the way to the very tip. I get plumb (g-rated forum, mind your words, James) discouraged when I pick up a knife that is razor-sharp along its belly, and dull as a rail near the tip and near the ricasso. That's fine for shaving your arm, but what if I want to open a deer or peel an apple or cut a thread?

Knives should be sharp all the way along the edge. That's a big reason why I got interested in making handmade knives in the first place; I got just plain sick of re-beveling the edges of every knife I owned or was asked to sharpen. I've seen some overall good quality, handmade knives that still have this problem, what the heck?!? There, I said it. ;)

I like this example:

Here's an example of a "squared off edge" I use on a re-profiled style sharpening.

002-1.jpg

Please note the fact that the actual, usable edge goes very, very close to the plunge. That's what I'm talking about.

I do NOT care for handmade/custom knives that have an edge that fades away, lazily swoops down towards the plunge, and gets dull as a post the last 1/4" near the plunge. Frankly, I find that to be a cop-out. To be fair, this is rare, but it does happen. Many times, I've seen makers asking custom money for a factory-grade grind. There, I said it again.

I know small choils/"sharpening notches" make an edge easier to sharpen (sort of), but I also know they make the edge "catch" on stuff when you're choking up on the blade for close work. I also know that it's a really easy, cheesy way to "hide" sloppy plunges and uneven grinds. Why do you think it's so common on mass-produced blades?

Yes, it takes a little more work to finish the "squared-off" edge Tourist describes, but not THAT much more work. I think it's worth it, for the performance, appearance, and ease-of-sharpening of almost any blade.

It honestly doesn't take me that long to get that right, if I got the plunge right to begin with (I still struggle with that, believe me). I reckon people willing to pay for a handmade knife should expect that kind of attention to detail. This is why I have a LOT more paperweights than I do finished/sold knives.

*Whew* I'm done ranting now. Sorry if anyone was offended.
 
Last edited:
I too am desperately awaiting a tutorial. I have begun to form an inferiority complex regarding my blades.
As a maker, albeit a relatively new one, I have never had a complaint about sharpness or longevity. After listening to (reading) some of these posts, I question my ability. I ask myself, could this knife cut a butterbean in half?

There was a thread here in the past asking what is considered sharp enough, is sharpness beyond human perception a neccessity or is it even achievable?

Mr. Tourist, your latest pics show an exceptionally clean bevel and I know this is considered a learned art but this can also be achieved with diamond stones and a Lansky type system. No disrespect intended, but do you feel the water stone edge is just as practical and as easily accessible to average carriers and users, or is this such an obscure art that most will never benefit from it?

Respectfully submitted,
Steve Janik
Super Moderator
 
If you use your knives for working on animals the choil is a pain !!! It hangs up every where. Good sharpenings are still achieved. If the knife has a choil the cutting edge will be shorter given the length of the blade as will the actual cutting will be sharp on one without a choil. Frank
 
I am amzed at the decorative work I see here on KD. And I also understand that many of these knives are works of art and probably never going to be utilized as EDCs. But I have a question/comment/observation, and I'd like some opinions.

If the knife is going to be used, there is the expection that it is going to go dull. And when the knife is a major investment, lots of guys come to me. I have found that a small choil in front of the ricasso allows a stone to be postioned right to the end of tthe bevel.

In fact, I often re-profile standard folders with a "squared off" edge in case the client wants to maintain his own knife. I have a sprecial set of half size Edge Pro waterstones to 'chase out' the remnants of the small fillet in front of the ricasso.

If you are an observer of knives similar to the Graham Brothers line, you will see this tiny choil. Yikes, it makes my job so much easier!

Is this feature hard to produce for one-man cutlers? Does this feature detract from some esthetic to which I'm not aware? In your opinion, does it weaken that portion of the edge, or simply require a difficult milling process?

Here's an example of a "squared off edge" I use on a re-profiled style sharpening.

002-1.jpg


Here's a small standard feature on a production knife that makes my life so much easier.

011.jpg


The two blades pictured use conflicting styles as I see them. The Buck at the top I would find difficult to sharpen, with the ricasso dropping below the actual cutting edge. I see no benefit to this configuration. On the other hand the lower blade pictured is more suited for the average joe type sharpener, with its edge extended below the ricasso.
If the cross section of a blade is correctly proportioned for the job it is asked to do; I will take this over where the edge begins or ends. I know I can make it sharp if the above condition is present.

Fred
 
Another vote for tutorial were all about learning here on knifedogs I take in all the knowledge I can and use what I feel works best I for one would like to know more about sharping knives.
Anthony
 
Fred, I very respectfully disagree. I have no problem sharpening an edge that runs very close to the plunge, ricasso or guard. Perhaps that's because I use stones or diamond plates and not rods. I can see where using ceramic/diamond rods would be difficult in such a small area; not sure if that's what you meant.

If the cross section of a blade is correctly proportioned for the job it is asked to do; I will take this over where the edge begins or ends. I know I can make it sharp if the above condition is present.

I definitely DO agree with that.
 
In trying to get a stone to the edge--or to get the edge to perfectly sit on the stone--I have simply found two ways.

The first is the choil. Right out of the box, the back third of the blade engages the stone.

But lots of times I am not presented with that option, and many of you have exchanged the reasoning to me.

So, because a choil is not included or designed into the overall blade shape, I square off the edge. I know it is not the same as a choil-style blade edge, it's just my way of working around the problem.

I even hate to use the word 'problem.' Better, it's a problem for me. That original non-choil edge might be the deliberate design of the cutler.

And once again, I am not referring to art knives or collectibles. My concern is that the stylistic attributes of true collectibles find their way into EDCs. That issue is problematic for me. It's one more hurdle in supplying the client with a sharp knife.
 
To get back to the original questions...

Is this feature hard to produce for one-man cutlers?

No. A small "sharpening notch" such as you describe is very easy to produce by hand. A small round file will get it done very quickly.

I do not think a shallow, round indention makes much difference in the strength of the blade. A sharp inside angle very well might; this is called a stress riser. I've seen paper-cutting dies with 2" shafts snap clean off because they were ground with square shoulders; cursory examination of the broken steel did not indicate any problem with heat-treating or materials. I've never seen one with "relieved" or rounded shoulders break that way. (standard disclaimer: I'm not a metallurgist or engineer, this is only what I've experienced)

Aesthetically... well, we've already seen that's a matter of opinion. :)
 
Last edited:
Another aspect here is the disposition of the knife owner.

Does a professional chef who makes over six figures care is his Hattori snaps when he hurls it across a kitchen in a fit of pique? Of course not. But I'd better scurry over to his kitchen, genuflect and kiss his ring before an innocent sous-chef becomes a human sacrifice. The repairs must go on!

Most Japanese gyutos have a heel that goes right out to the end. Many folks complain that they have sliced open a knuckle just from the pointy edge here.

The issue is that in the hurry of food prepararion, often a gyuto is used for the most mundane tasks, and heel chopping is such a chore.

Weak or not, professional or not, an edge must be as sharp and as useful to the whims of its owner for the duratiopn of its life and to the extent of its length.

As for squaring off the end of the rear bevel, it just gives me a litte wiggle room to make the stone-to-metal fit precise. Kneeling in the snow at the cusp of dusk over a downed deer is a lousy time to find out that half of your edge isn't sharp.

I realize these concerns and aspects of cutlery are a tad mundane. I guess there are two lives to a knife. One is the pristine picture a cutler sees as he makes the best product of his hands. The other life is routine maintenance.
 
Hurling automatically voids all my warranties, express or implied :D

These little details are mundane or even pointless (groan) to people who buy their knives at Wally World and throw them away when they fail or go dull (whichever comes first).

To people who sell, make, sharpen and/or repair high-performance cutlery, they can mean the difference between a knife that comes back to haunt you, and a good night's sleep.

I don't like sharpening notches. Would I put one on a knife if a client asked? Yes. If there's no sharpening notch, should the edge go as close to the plunge/ricasso/heel as possible without flopping around like a dead fish and just getting in the way when it should be sharp? Yes.
 
Last edited:
I don't like sharpening notches. Would I put one on a knife if a client asked? Yes.

And that's the true nature of my point of view. Return business depends on satisfaction, and I have to work around manufacturing concerns to provide sharp edges.

Yikes, I have done sommersaults around CRKT thumb-studs trying to figure out if there was anyway the human hand could grip the knife, maintain a uniform angle and not mar the stud with a stone. Horse apiece. I can unscrew most of the Cold Steel studs.

It's love/hate. One of the sharpest knives I ever held was a 13-dollar Mossberg brand folder that Blue Ridge was liquidating. In fact, that's the knife I dropped into my foot. The edge didn't have two sections anywhere that were the same degree, pitch or width. I was so baffled I bought another one--it was another mess, and yet a spooky sharp finished job. Go figure.

So, I smile at the client and secretly think, "How in the world am I going to work around the problems on this train wreck...?"

Edit: Here are two examples of clients' working knives. One is a 150 dollar Emerson and the other is a six dollar Chinese Shrade knock-off. They had the same problem, getting the stone straight onto the bevel.

DSC00232.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Tourist , I pretty much rebevel every knife I am asked to sharpen because you will have a hard time getting a consistant sharp edge from tip to choil . I do it hoping the next time its still the same and takes less tipe to sharpen. I did a fillet knife for my good friend over the course of the entire winter he has not sharpened the knife yet and says its just starting to get dull after cleaning over 100 fish thats real good edge retention . I know I will sell alot of knives in the future with a product like that. I been doing some custom sharpening and a water stone is just fine but very time consuming. I use structured abrsuve belts and myu paper wheel system . Im upgrading to a tormek should be here this week .
 
Tourist , Im upgrading to a tormek should be here this week .

That's an option I do not have. Even with mechanized wheels that cool items with a constant flow of water, I have no desire to de-laminate a Hattori which costs +2,200 dollars. I'd rather take an hour (or two) study the bevel and cut once--slowly.

Besides, I'm retired, I have lots of time.

As for a uniform bevel, that's more of an art than a science. I think it's an important facet as many chefs like to make one, smooth slice. The added time I sweat out worrying about a uniform cut with a perfect feel of "cleave" probably brings me more work than the hassle required.

And at a visceral level, it's "me vs. the knife.":D
 
Back
Top