Getting ivory

M

mikeymoto

Member
I recently asked a maker if he would make me a pair of knives with elephant ivory handles and he said he would if he could find documented ivory for the project. I did not know at the time about the history of elephant ivory.

Anyhow, I still want elephant ivory handles and I'm wondering if there's a place I can get it myself to ship to a maker for a special set of knives?

I do of course want legally obtained ivory and don't know which suppliers might have it and what "proof" is necessary to make it legitimate.

Does anybody have knowledge on this topic they can share?

Not to wander far from my main question, but say it's not feasible to get elephant ivory, is there another natural ivory that is easier to get which is a white color?
 
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The basic info i think anybody will tell you is that you can get pre-ban elephant, or, in europe- new elephant with CITES documents. However, the elephant ivory is a bit iffy for most people from the ethical point of view... I would recommend using the inner mammoth ivory. You can get some nice very light pieces, nobody minds, cause they are already extinct, and the material has some interesting history in it...
Hope this helps
Ondrej
 
Hippo Ivory is also very white and the straight tusk can be pretty big.
Boone Trading Co are great people. He has been trading ivory for over 30 years
http://www.boonetrading.com/index.html
For an idea a scale 1 1/4 x 4 1/2 x 1/4 is $55 or $110 a set. 1 1/2 wide goes up to $125 a set.

I am all for elephants but, in truth Africa has less wilderness than the US, the sanctuaries and open areas will only support so many. Unfortunately, free roaming elephants can be a deadly as well as economic problem for small farmers. Those that must be culled should be available for purchase to help fund the rest.

I say return all wild life to their native habitat. A good start would be 100 grizzly bears in the San Fransisco bay area.
 
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I have been in cars chased by elephants when I lived in Africa.... wow they are fast!

I even saw a car get caught be one... You would think that Toyota didn't take elephants into account when they designed the land cruiser.... :eek:

SteelSlaver said:
Africa has less wilderness than the US
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What? says who?



To the original topic, Mammoth is gonna solve all those pesky legal issues... ;)
 
Take a look at AKS. I'll went the their site the other day and the handle fossil ivor scales. Their core ivory scales are as about as reasonable as I have seen them. You also have the advantage of seeing a picture of the actual scales that you're buying. You can find them at www.alphaknifesupply.com.
 
Here is where I buy my preban legal elephant ivory. It aint cheap but its top quality and comes with the proper affidavit of origin. He has been buying estate ivory for many years and has a great reputation.
http://www.ivorybuyer.com/
 
i bought a piece of ivory from elephantivorytusk.com and they would NOT give me a certificate with it. nice looking stuff but questionable with no certificate.
 
If I purchased preban ivory from someone and they couldn't or wouldn't supply a certificate with it I would return it. First I would make sure that it came with a certificate before ordering. Without that certificate you always run the risk of having ivory confiscated and a possible fine. This is a good reason to stick to fossilized ivory. Another reason is that fossilized ivory is more stable.

Doug Lester
 
What I'm curious about is how do you get POST ban elephant ivory? Are there dealers who sell post ban ivory in the US? Has the US government changed its official policy regarding the use of African elephant ivory in the last 20 years?

As I understand it, back in 1989 when the CITES treaty regulating the trade in African elephant ivory went into effect, ALL international trade in A. elephant ivory and other products became illegal (except for hunting trophies which could not be re-sold for any commercial purpose). There had been a good sized legal trade in ivory up to that point. It was declared by our government that all A. elephant ivory already in the US was now considered legally obtained (probably not much was here illegally anyway) and could be used for any commercial purpose, including knives. It can't be imported anymore, but we can still use what was already in country. No certificates were needed then, and I know of no real reason to need certificates now. This was the big topic of discussion at the 89 Guild show.

Back in the 80s when all this came about, the major user of poached A. elephant ivory was in Asia, mostly Japan as I recall. I doubt that much was ever brought into the US or even Europe, certainly nothing like the amount that went to Asia. I remember the big hoopla of Kenya hiring Hollywood pyrotechnic effects experts to come and burn something like 60 tons of ivory from government warehouses to protest the horrors of poaching. (Never mind that they could have dumped the ivory on the market and put the money they received into some boots for the game wardens and something besides SMLE Enfields from WW1 to combat the poachers, they had a show to put on!)

So just who in the United States is going to confiscate your ivory handled knives? The US decided that all the elephant ivory here was legal, so the US Fish & Wildlife isn't looking for you. White walrus ivory if you aren't an Alaskan native, rhino horn, and whale teeth for sure, but African elephant ivory scales on a bowie? I don't think so. There just isn't a problem with poached ivory hitting the streets in the US.

And who is going to actually sign off on the legality of the elephant ivory? Fish & Wildlife doesn't I'm sure. So you buy some scales from Boone Trading and he scribbles his initials on a Xeroxed slip of paper. How legit is that in reality? There isn't a US Govt. agency that goes around checking ivory dealers like they do, say, with the alcoholic beverage industry. What if you buy some of my old scales. So I tell you I bought them in 1985, but I don't have the receipt. Any certificate I throw together and sign is in reality meaningless other than to make some feel better. And what are you going to do if someone sells you a whole tusk section and you cut it up into scales or blocks? You're going to take the one certificate and make a bunch of copies. Just how legitimate is that? I mean, you could make a hundred copies for the dozen handles you actually get. There's just no way to regulate it.

I think you guys are worried way too much about this "pre-ban" certification. The US government did that almost 21 years ago as an official policy. There are several sources for ivory who run a decent business. Boone and these others are no more selling poached ivory now than they were 20-30 years ago.

David
 
You are right, it is not legal to import ivory into the US that was harvested after the CITES ban went unto force. It's also illegal to import marijuana, rubies from Burma, various animals or animal parts (other than ivory) from other parts of the world and several species of plants but that hasn't really stopped the trade. If you are challanged by a law inforcement official (like customs) and you can't prove that the ivory is pre-ban it will be confiscated and you may be sited. In this case the burden of poof is on the possessor. The inspectors can tell the difference between non-fossil and fossil (mineralized) ivory. That's why I would stick with the latter.

The laws can be strange. Back when I was shooting a stick bow the supply houses could sell baleen to back a bow with but after the bowyer made a bow with it he/she could not transfer ownership in any manner. Granted, one could look on it as one of the things that's not illegal if you don't get caught, but if you do get caught you're in trouble.

Doug Lester
 
Doug Lester said:
If you are challanged by a law inforcement official (like customs) and you can't prove that the ivory is pre-ban it will be confiscated and you may be sited. In this case the burden of poof is on the possessor.
Doug Lester
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Doug, if you are a US maker using ivory that is technically legal as per the US law enacted 21 years ago (giving all A. elephant ivory in the US legal status) and you sell it to a US buyer how is it that a custom official would get involved? Customs only deals with imports. (The original poster is in the US.) In the last 20 plus years do you know of a US maker or collector who has been arrested by a Fish & Wildlife officer or had an A. elephant ivory handle knife confiscated? I certainly don't.

Pot is generally still illegal across the US and is not a fair comparison. Concerning the Burmese rubies, does every person with ruby jewelry have to carry their certificates of authenticity in case they are stopped by a cop on the street or a US marshal to prove they didn't come from Burma? I doubt that. There is only a small market for ivory in the US compared to cheetah coats, tiger's genitals, and bear gall bladders.

No, I think everyone is getting way too worried about certs on ivory. It's not nearly the problem that some want to make it. Buy your old ivory and make a knife with it and stop worrying about stuff that doesn't matter or is not necessary.

David
 
Fine, you can do what you like and you're right that the chances of getting caught is slim. However, if you get caught you can have some real trouble and why would you make a knife that the buyer can't take or ship outside of the country. Sometimes it is better to ask for permission than forgiveness and, accepting that it's not illegal unless you get caught, people do get caught whether you hear about them or not.

Doug Lester
 
Wait a minute!

I don't think it's possible to "prove" any piece of elephant ivory was here prior to '89.

If they require proof the material was here prior to 1989, the blanket amnesty allowing previous stock to be used for commercial purposes is meaningless and it all becomes illegal since none of that old ivory can be expected to have been "documented".

There would be no official method of documentation prior to '89, since it wasn't an issue prior to that, and I can't think of a legitimate way you could "document" it, or prove, that those little slabs on your knife were from a pre-'89 piece anyway. Yet they declared pre-89 ivory "legal for commercial purposes", which means cutting it up and making stuff out of it.

Not only can you not expect documentation prior to '89 to exist in any meaningful way, any document dated prior to '89 verifying it was in the country legally, would essentially prove itself specious, since there would be no motivation for someone to have created such a document at the time.

If they're demanding papers/proof for every piece of ivory, the declaration that pre-'89 ivory is "legal for commercial purposes" is meaningless. It all becomes illegal.
 
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Doug Lester said:
Fine, you can do what you like and you're right that the chances of getting caught is slim. However, if you get caught you can have some real trouble and why would you make a knife that the buyer can't take or ship outside of the country. Sometimes it is better to ask for permission than forgiveness and, accepting that it's not illegal unless you get caught, people do get caught whether you hear about them or not.

Doug Lester
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Doug, you can't take any African elephant ivory out of the country anyway! Do you think that if I make a knife with ivory and a Japanese or German or English or whomever buyer comes here to take delivery that his home country's customs people are going to let him bring it in just because I have some homemade slip of paper that says it was legal because the ivory was "pre-ban"? Do you think that if you buy a knife with ivory in the UK made by a British knifemaker who gives you a piece of paper you can bring it back home to the US? No! It's illegal in just about every country on earth to bring A. elephant ivory objects into the country. The CITES treaty bans the importation of A. elephant ivory objects and the raw tusks. Let me state this another way: even if your ivory was legally obtained in the country you are bringing it in from you cannot import any African elephant ivory into your country. It matters not whether you have a certificate stating it was "pre-ban" ivory because ALL IMPORTATION is illegal. No knife buyer with the certificate can bring his knife home if obtained outside his country. Try going across our northern border with A. elephant ivory and your certificate. If the Canadian customs people at the border are on the ball you'll lose it, and in the end you will have your nice certificate that states the ivory was ok because it was "pre-ban", nothing else.

Read Joe's post. There was a legal and legitimate elephant ivory trade in this country prior to the 1989 CITES treaty. There still is a legal and legitimate ivory trade in the US that sells old stock that was here then and given legal status at that time, or as Joe said it, blanket amnesty. No proof was required prior to or in 1989 and none is needed today.

The certificates that state your ivory is "pre-ban" are meaningless. They can't be enforced because they aren't issued by anyone in authority. The only reason for these certificates is to make someone feel good, nothing more.

David
 
Les George said:
I have been in cars chased by elephants when I lived in Africa.... wow they are fast!

I even saw a car get caught be one... You would think that Toyota didn't take elephants into account when they designed the land cruiser.... :eek:






What? says who?



To the original topic, Mammoth is gonna solve all those pesky legal issues... ;)
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._Wilderness_Areas
The Congo area wilderness only has 1.7 million Km2
The Serengeti is only 30,000Km2
Remember Alaska is huge and almost completely wilderness. Africa is big but, has a huge population also.
 
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