Quenching oil and 52100

Shane Wink

Well-Known Member
Guys I have an OCD issue where I just cant use something if I am not certain it is the correct something for the job. In this case I have some 52100 from aldo that I am planning to make a few blades from to compare to the O1 blades i made to see how mu heat treat compares. I did some searching and found that some say P50 is just fine ( which I have already ) and others say medium speed or 28 sec oil from Mcmaster's

Whats the skinny here? I dont like to half way do anything and it will bug me to no end if I dont settle this. Whats your thoughts?
 
I don't imagine you are going to like heat treating 52100 no matter what oil you use. I have found no steel with less consistent outcomes than 52100. You can do it, but it's always a struggle. I used to use canola - then Haughton Quench K - and now, P50. Enjoy. :)
 
I don’t use a lot of 52100,… but “theoretically“, wouldn’t it be best to use the slowest possible quench speed to achieve the desired results or to be within minimum industrial standards, especially because of the triangular or generally wedge shaped, thin, cross section of knife blades and their inherent “temperature gradients“,... residual stresses etc., ?

Generally speaking “super fast” accelerated quenching fluids aren’t recommended for crack prone parts such as knife blades. In the case of 52100, I don’t think it needs an accelerated medium and probably wouldn’t be the most reasonable and prudent choice. Medium speed or slower would likely be best.
 
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Parks AAA would be a good choice. I'd use it for the O1 as well.
And pre-heat it a bit to the 100+ degree range.
Tai's second paragraph is good advice.
 
I cracked a 52100 blade in parks once but it was maybe a bit thin..Parks is a 7-9 second oil if Im not mistaken..Ive been using mcmaster carr fast quench that is a 9-11 second oil with great results..I use Cashens forumla of a 1475*-1500* soak at about 15 minutes..Comes out around 66rc
 
I cracked a 52100 blade in parks once but it was maybe a bit thin..Parks is a 7-9 second oil if Im not mistaken..Ive been using mcmaster carr fast quench that is a 9-11 second oil with great results..I use Cashens forumla of a 1475*-1500* soak at about 15 minutes..Comes out around 66rc

Yes he mentioned that as well and I will be looking for some medium speed oil. I am not a shortcut kind of fellow and would rather do something to get the most from it or not even do it.

Thanks for the replays and I will let y'all know how it goes.
 
With the medium speed oil, are there any advantages to AAA over peanut/canola oil? I also use P50 as my fast oil, but is it really worth getting AAA over the natural oils?
 
Good question, but without direct cooling curve comparisons, it’s hard to say. The main advantage to the petroleum or mineral based mediums is that they are more stable and last longer... In the long run they save money.

Both are fast during the initial part of the quench, in order to achieve desired crystallographic structures and properties, and both slow down to minimize stress and cool by the same heat transfer mechanism (convention), although differences in viscosity will have an effect on this stage., during the lower temp., part of the quench.

Doing an interrupted quench with either and finishing in air (slower) wouldn’t be a bad idea.

AAA quench oil:

http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheettext.aspx?matguid=972346d85e474602ab6bdf92c7bb5aed

Vegetable oil quenchants:

http://www.industrialheating.com/ar...getable-oils-as-alternatives-to-petroleum-oil

Both may be a bit too fast for O1 and/or 52100, depending on the other variables... geometry, forming method, steel quality etc.

A student of mine had a few real thin kitchen knife blades, 1095, crack from canola.
 
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Guys I have an OCD issue where I just cant use something if I am not certain it is the correct something for the job. In this case I have some 52100 from aldo that I am planning to make a few blades from to compare to the O1 blades i made to see how mu heat treat compares. I did some searching and found that some say P50 is just fine ( which I have already ) and others say medium speed or 28 sec oil from Mcmaster's

Whats the skinny here? I dont like to half way do anything and it will bug me to no end if I dont settle this. Whats your thoughts?

asked the same question about 3 months ago, but cant find the link. basically i was advised by this forum's moderator(who heat treated some of this 52100 as a favor for Aldo) to
1) normalize at 1650F after a 5 minute soak at temp
2) heat to 1475, soak for at least 10 minutes, then quench in parks 50. should be in the Rc63-64 range
3) temper immediately
scott
 
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asked the same question about 3 months ago, but cant find the link. basically i was advised by this forum's moderator(who heat treated some of this 52100 as a favor for Aldo) to
1) normalize at 1650F after a 5 minute soak at temp
2) heat to 1475, soak for at least 10 minutes, then quench in parks 50. should be in the Rc63-64 range
3) temper immediately
scott

Scott I received the same "advisement". It was told to me that with Aldos 52100 even for stock removal the normalization at 1650 for 5-10 minutes was nessassay to unlock the carbides to have the potential for an Rc 63-64. I have read that Kevin is getting an Rc value of 66 with normal meansbut I just sent him an email asking if that were true and if so please please please sir how ;)
 
I have used 52100 a bit and I've had good hardness quenching in peanut oil. I've also marquenched it but, according to Kevin, there might be a problem with the rate of heat transfer with the oil that hot. I don't know about soaking the steel at 1650° for normalization. If you are using a kiln you might need to do that to make sure that the steel is heated all the way through. If you are using a forge and are estimating the temperature then I would only hold long enough for even heating; no longer than a minute to avoid grain growth. You are not concerned with dissolving the carbon into the ausinite during normalization; you only need to make sure all the ferrite changes to austinite.

Doug
 
Ed Fowler has done more work with 52100 than anyone else I know. He uses a slow quench oil and apparently gets good hardness and edge retention even with the extreme grain refinement.
 
did some more backtracking and think i have found the answers.
this is going to take 6 days(like the creation) heat and quench on odd numbered days, age and chill on even days
day 1 heat steel to 1375F, hold for 10min. increase heat and when temp indicates 1400, quench in slow oil. temper at 300F for 2 hours. place in freezer.
day 3 heat steel to 1400F, hold for 10 min, increase heat and when temp indicates 1425, quench in slow oil, temper at 325F for 2 hours. place in freezer
day 5 heat steel to 1425, hold for 10 min, increase heat and when temp indicateds 1450, quench in slow oil, temper at 350F for 2 hours, place in freezer
at end of day 6, remove steel from freezer.
will have steel that will hold a razor edge and can be tied in a knot.
for best results, freezer door must face Damascus.
exact quench oil formula is secret, but a mixture of 1 part ATF from a 70s chevy nova, 1 part fry oil from burger biggy, and 1 part used dte25 hydraulic oil is a ok substitute. if your blade either wont hold an edge or breaks while trying to be tied in a knot, your temps were too high or you soaked too long or you followed accepted standards and ended up with steel at Rc61-63 and good edge retention qualities.
I apologize in advance Mr. Cashen, I couldn't resist.
the old sailor
 
Jeeze Scott, you had me till about half way through. :rolleyes:

It's legal to go after idiots, but you aren't allowed to hunt us over bait.

Rob!
 
sorry rob. just a tired old sailor havin' a wee bit of fun on a cold windy Sunday morning. Off to the basement, today is handle day for the 6 or 7 I have in work.
scott
 
did some more backtracking and think i have found the answers.
this is going to take 6 days(like the creation) heat and quench on odd numbered days, age and chill on even days
day 1 heat steel to 1375F, hold for 10min. increase heat and when temp indicates 1400, quench in slow oil. temper at 300F for 2 hours. place in freezer.
day 3 heat steel to 1400F, hold for 10 min, increase heat and when temp indicates 1425, quench in slow oil, temper at 325F for 2 hours. place in freezer
day 5 heat steel to 1425, hold for 10 min, increase heat and when temp indicateds 1450, quench in slow oil, temper at 350F for 2 hours, place in freezer
at end of day 6, remove steel from freezer.
will have steel that will hold a razor edge and can be tied in a knot.
for best results, freezer door must face Damascus.
exact quench oil formula is secret, but a mixture of 1 part ATF from a 70s chevy nova, 1 part fry oil from burger biggy, and 1 part used dte25 hydraulic oil is a ok substitute. if your blade either wont hold an edge or breaks while trying to be tied in a knot, your temps were too high or you soaked too long or you followed accepted standards and ended up with steel at Rc61-63 and good edge retention qualities.
I apologize in advance Mr. Cashen, I couldn't resist.
the old sailor

That just about says it all and made me laugh too. Thanks Scott.
 
Just goes to prove, you can take the sailor out of the Navy but you still can't take him out in public. Or was that Corpsmen?:3:

Doug:biggrin:
 
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