Recommend me a stainless?

Drew Riley

Well-Known Member
Hey guys... I've been looking into some stainless steel options, and it seems that the majority of them require (or at least benefit moderately from) a cryogenic treatment after plate/air quench.

Are there any stainless (or moderately corrosion resistant) steels that don't necessarily need a cryo treat in order to reach a relatively decent potential?

I only ask because I'd like to make some folders using stainless, but I don't currently have the equipment to cryo treat.
 
Andrew,
The oldest and still most widely used cutlery stainless I am aware of is Good' ole 440C.

I can't give you numbers but many many of the older nail nick opening folders made here by the USA companies were, and still probably are non cryogenic treated.

440C has been in use in Cutlery since the 1950's
I have used 440C myself for over 16 years and have always used
www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos for my expert heat treatment.

I know the absolute best heat treatment including Cyro is always done by them and from talking with my Rep there they work with the steel companies setting up the guidelines for heat treatment of new cutlery steel's. CPM steels is one example.

Depending on the amount of blades you want I will be sending another batch of CPM-154 in the next month or so and you are welcome to batch with me? Or I'm sure if you are making just some small single blade type, Nail nick pen knives you could get a decent blade for light tasks without Cryo.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 
Thanks for the reply (and the batching offer) Laurence. I'm actually getting into making some framelocks and possibly some liner locks, and I expect these to be daily users, so I want the steels to hold up (both edge and corrosion wise), and I want them to have the best heat treat possible.

That being said, I'm not really able to swing the cost of a LN dewar at the moment, and for as little as I'll use it, I'm not sure the cost/return benefit would be there.

I MAY think about looking into the dry ice and kerosene/acetone method, but I'm still researching.
 
Andrew, it might be worth a little research on a used dewar. We have some here as low as $75 (sorry, can't ship to the US - and not crazy about trusting these to any shipper) and I'm sure a search of dairy facilities or farm supply might lead you to something similar. Might be worth the search.

I like your post because of the steel selection part of the question. I'm not going to name steels because it will always make someone mad, but if you go over data sheets, you'll find that steel Y without cryo, will outperform steel X even with cryo.

Also, you can can gain a little extra by using a third temper, though there are dimishing returns.

Rob!
 
I have used 440 C and ATS 34 for 20 years , will give you a good edge holding and corrosion resistant blade with out cryo treatment, had some cryo treated, the only thing I could sharpen them with was a diamond, thought they were to hard for the average person. Deane
 
if your going stainless and gonna ship it off for HT then I would use CPM 154

takes a mirror polish and holds a great edge
 
+1 for the 440C and CPM154. They're fine steels, the 440C isn't so much a base to work from as a high bar the other exceed marginally in my opinion. It is ridiculously good at edge holding compared to the cheap 440A, 420, 425 and other junk steels and makes an investment grade knife. Those two are also extremely corrosion resistant, I mirror polish the majority of my work and haven't had a single spot on a finished blade yet. Cryo if you desire, but it's not needed.
 
I appreciate the replies guys. I'll definitely have to do some testing and see what I come up with. If anything, I'm sure there are still some gains that can be achieved with the dryice and kerosene/acetone, though not as much as LN. I may even see about getting a used dewar when finances allow, but right now it's still out of reach.
 
Well, I just emailed a local gas supplier to see if they might offer dewar rental, as it may be more cost effective to rent one for a month or two at a time, as needed, rather than plopping down 300-500 bucks for a used dewar.

Just as a curiousity though, can somebody enlighten me on what I should expect to pay for 20 to 30 liters of LN?

I've seen anything from a couple of bucks per gallon to nearly a couple hundred for 40 liters. If it's gonna cost me 100 to 200 bucks to cryo a few blades here and there, it probably won't be worth it. On the other hand, if I can rent a dewar for a few bucks per week and fill it for 30 or 40 bucks, that would be a no brainer.

Anybody have any experience with this?
 
Canadian prices won't help you much, but maybe the experiences will. Once I do the conversions from litres to US gallon's we are paying about $10 per gallon. We have had (short lived) opportunities fall into our lap that you may want to explore. One large company gave us pretty much free access to "the big sausage" (huge LN tank) in return for a knife donated to their safety day events. A driver for dairy genetics deliveries offered us a few fills at $20 per fill. One driver for a fracking company just opened a valve and said 'stick your tank under there' (a little scary but free).

None of these were entirely satisfactory - many not available when I needed them and some as a one-off, but just like used dewars, there are opportunities if you have the time to search them out. LN seems to forever go up and will likely be the root cause of another price increase in the coming months.

Think Dairy - Veterinary - Oilfield - University.... and start networking.

Good luck
 
If you want a stainless to avoid cryo and cold, might I suggest 13c26 or AEB-L. There is a procedure out there to minimzethe need for cold through control of austenization temperatures and multiple tempering. If you're sending it out, just get the whole shebang, but if diy, its worth looking into. It requires access to a hardness tester and some experimentation with and w/o cold, but some educated guessing will minimize the need for both.
 
If you want a stainless to avoid cryo and cold, might I suggest 13c26 or AEB-L. There is a procedure out there to minimzethe need for cold through control of austenization temperatures and multiple tempering. If you're sending it out, just get the whole shebang, but if diy, its worth looking into. It requires access to a hardness tester and some experimentation with and w/o cold, but some educated guessing will minimize the need for both.

I appreciate the input. I will have to look into that more.
 
The basic procedure is in Verhoeven's section on stainless in his book for bladesmiths. It applies to any stainless, but some work better than others, and he really likes AEB-L/13c26. He basically says you can get pretty good control over retained austenite by adjusting the austenization temperatures. If you are seeing a gain of more than one point HRc after cold/LN2, then adjust it down as you have too much carbon in solution, leading to too much RA. He advocates for these steels to be at or above HRc 60, so we're not looking at someone saying 55 going to 58 after cold is too much of a change.
 
Not to disagree with anyone here but even though 440c is a great choice, the public seems to have a bitter taste in regards to this steel. Through poor experiences with mass produced knives, most of the people in my circle avoid like the plague. I hate to say it, but I couldn't give away a 440C knife to the knifenuts that I know.

I personally like CPM154, AEB-L and S35VN (from blades I've used and some that I've made).
 
Mike928....great suggestions and I understand your take on 440c. I think the bad reputation comes from the misnomer that some substituted 440b with 440c. Also poor heat treating
 
Yup, 440C got a bad rep due to manufactured knives stating that they were made from "440" stainless. The general public doesn't know the difference between 440A, 440B, 440C or 440 XYZ. All they know is that they bought a blade from "440" and it was a piece of junk.

That is really a shame. I made a few a couple of years ago from 440C and sent them to Paul Bos for H/T. I kept one for myself in order to see how they held up. Very, very satisfied. Holds a great edge when used as intended.

As a side note, I finished one from CPM S35VN a couple of months ago. Heat treated it in my Evenheat and did not Cryo. I think it could skin a Greyhound bus and then shave a wooly mammoth. :)

Robert
 
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