Water Quench and Hamon Questions for 1095

Shane Wink

Well-Known Member
I have been reading up on how to get a more active hamon when using 1095 and have seen several videos on youtube as well as in the forum. They say to coat the entire blade with a wash when quenching in water but several others mention using a brine over water to aid in reducing the vapor jacket. Does not the clay wash do this as well and if the wash speeds up the quench would not water be too fast? I have sanatite in the shop and have planned to use it unless there is something better.

Is there a general thickness of clay I need to achieve on each side for a 5/32 spine?

How can I give the blade its best chance for survival when quenching into water?

What temp does the water/brine need to be?

Would a brine improve the quench and if so how much salt is needed per gallon?

Do some clays work better in producing a hamon in 1095?

Should the clay be dry before firing?

Thanks - shane
 
you need to first be sure of the specs of the steel you have. 1095 exists in two basic varieties. One has less manganese than the other. manganese helps in hardening. it is good for a lot of blade uses. Bad for hamons, though. You want low hardenability for hamons. Get the lowest manganese version available. The manganese should be less than 40pts.

Then, normalize very carefully. 3 times. Descending heats. The first normalization, you should soak it and hold it for about 5 minutes at about 1550F. The second one, soak and hold somewhere around 1475F for 3 min. The 3rd one, hold around 1400F for a couple of minutes. Let cool to black between each.

After you have done these things, then you can worry about clay.
I suggest Low Manganese 1075 instead, from Aldo. or W1, or W2. Each of these is MUCH better for hamons than 1095 from the beginning.
 
Thanks Kevin. I would like some W1 or W2 but the thinnest I know of is from Aldo in 1/4. I don't want to draw it out thinner if I can find it closer to 5/32 in flat stock. I read somewhere Tracy carried it but I cant find it on his site if he still does. Having it surface ground seems like a waste of money and steel going from 1/4 to 5/32.

The 1095 is from aldo as well.
 
I agree with Kevin that W2 would be better for hamons but you still can get a hamon just not as great as a W2 one in my opinion with the 1095 from Aldo.

I used Satanite clay for coating my 1095 blade.

Some of the best way to keep your blades safe, not just when doing 1095 in water is to make sure that they are ground even, and that your edge is not too thin. I have cracked lots of blades by having them be to thin ( less than .020) when quenching in water.

The water I used was lower than room temp. but I would do it around room temp or a little above.

And I made sure that the clay was dry before I HTed.

I quenched the blade below in water. But I heat treated with a torch, trying some different experiments to see the type of hamon and heat treat I could get by utilizing clay and a torch. (Note: doesn't give you a perfect HTed blade by using a torch but it does work)

IMG_0566.jpg
 
Hopefully the "Weatherman" is right with the above forcast of information! Sorry its a corny pun but I had to type it :)

I have seen that blade several places and it was mentioned about a dual banding in the hamon. Was this believed to be from using the torch? Beautiful blade by the way.
 
Hopefully the "Weatherman" is right with the above forcast of information! Sorry its a corny pun but I had to type it :)

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Yeah it come about from utilizing the torch. You can see that the area that flame followed was hotter than the surrounding areas leaving the band. I want to make sure that I state that using a torch can work but it isn't the best way to HT, it leads to inconsistent results. But with practice you can get good results, just not as good as using an oven or a forge.

My other question for you Shane Wink, do you know why Kevin the Professor, said what he said?

I feel like we should talk about your questions and thoughts in more detail because when I started asking questions, and I still do, I feel like important explanations were left out.
 
As to the metallurgical explanation I dont know why higher Manganese will not produce a hamon as in 1084 or in 5160 or 52100 its the chromium I believe as those are two of the steels I am more familiar with. I did not know that 1095 came in two types either.

I believe I understand the normalization process and do this for all the 52100 I get in flats from Aldo and or anytime I forge a knife to profile. It is done to relieve stress and for grain refinement and hopefully reduce warpage in part to the stress relief.

I have not used 1075 before but I do know its tougher than 1095 and that 1095 is an hypereutectiod steel due too it being above .8% carbon such as 1084 which is an eutectiod. All this tells me that there is virtually no need for a soak time as the carbon has gone into solution by the time I reach the temp of my choice, meaning on the lower end for toughness or higher for harder Rc.

For a hypereutectiod like 1095 a soak is needed to give the carbon time to go into solution. I have read in the past and my memory is not that great so correct me if I am wrong but if one goes with too high within the austenizing range of a carbon steel and too long a soak then too much carbon can go into solution making what is called Plate martensite which is more brittle than lath martensite, I think :)

Getting the W2 will hafta wait till march as Aldo wont have it in till then and even then he believes it will be sold out in a week. Like I said I have not worked or own any 1075 knives so other then its toughness over 1095 I dont know any more. The hamon is not the deal breaker but I have a request and in the blade is in 1095 so I thought I would give it a go on the hamon and add another aspect as a maker.

Never hold back on the explanations with my post if you want. They are welcomed and I enjoy learning why.

Thanks for asking Weatherman!
 
When you get above, if I remember correctly, 0.4% carbon plate martensite will start to for along with lath martensite up to about 0.9% carbon. Above that you pretty much have all plate martensite which can cause microscopic cracks on quenching where the plates come together. When I mean microscopic, you may need a scanning electron micorscope to see them. That's why I dislike the idea of multiple quenches.

There are two problems with heating hypereuticoid steel too hot and/or too long. One is grain growth, which is a bigger problem with a hypereuticoid steel than a hypoeuticoid steel. The second is that so much carbon will be dissolved into the austinite that when it is quenched the carbon will physically stop the iron matrix from changing from a face centered cube to a body centered elongated "cube", martensite, and form retained austinite, which is unstable and can come back to haunt you at a latter date by converting into untempered martensite if it occurs in a high percentage of the steel.

Doug
 
When you get above, if I remember correctly, 0.4% carbon plate martensite will start to for along with lath martensite up to about 0.9% carbon. Above that you pretty much have all plate martensite which can cause microscopic cracks on quenching where the plates come together. When I mean microscopic, you may need a scanning electron micorscope to see them. That's why I dislike the idea of multiple quenches.

There are two problems with heating hypereuticoid steel too hot and/or too long. One is grain growth, which is a bigger problem with a hypereuticoid steel than a hypoeuticoid steel. The second is that so much carbon will be dissolved into the austinite that when it is quenched the carbon will physically stop the iron matrix from changing from a face centered cube to a body centered elongated "cube", martensite, and form retained austinite, which is unstable and can come back to haunt you at a latter date by converting into untempered martensite if it occurs in a high percentage of the steel.

Doug

I will agree with this, thats why you try to Heat Treat at the lower end of the appropriate Temps.

The only other thing that I can think of Shane is that the eutectiod point is, I think, .77%

I got to the point recently where I got tired of just hearing answers with no reasons, being laughed at, and looked at as stupid because I wanted to look at knife making as a more structured approach (because it can be when speaking about metallurgy), so I felt like I should make sure we got the info in the thread. Because I did a lot of searching and didn't find this kind of information when I started my experiments with the 1095, clay and water quenching.

I think we are doing ourselves a disservice by not including all the information in the threads. I know it has been put out there before, but the search function isn't great and if we get all the good info with good, solid, and correct reasoning into the threads it will be easier to find and we will help structure the knowledge better for up and coming makers.
 
Sounds great to me, I with you fellars ! Seriously though I like having answers where they can be found. I search out the answers before I ask or post but as mentioned the info can be sparse and in general terms and I like a more in depth response.

I am performance driven and it bugs me to think I may have left something on the table so I am always looking and asking questions then acting.
 
Sounds great to me, I with you fellars ! Seriously though I like having answers where they can be found. I search out the answers before I ask or post but as mentioned the info can be sparse and in general terms and I like a more in depth response.

I am performance driven and it bugs me to think I may have left something on the table so I am always looking and asking questions then acting.

I understand what you are saying. My problem come when its out there but its really really hard to find in the search function, and then everyone gets mad because it was asked again. But the answers are imbedded into something that you have to read through a ton of pages to find it. So I figure if we had put the thought process and the info in all the pages when it comes up we would be better off.
 
Back
Top