Heat treating stick tangs

Doug Lester

Well-Known Member
I've go two hidden tang knives that I'm grinding now and should have ready for heat treating by the end of the week. Here's my question. Would it be better not to quench the part of the tang where it joins the ricasso or not? I know that if I hold the tang out of the quenchant that the tang will be all pearletic steel which is tougher but not as strong as martensetic steel. If I put the knife into the quenchant to just over the ricasso then the tang at the union with the ricasso will be stronger but less tough, thus more susceptible to brittle failure. Though I could reduce this risk by drawing the temper at this spot with a torch. I can see advantages both ways so what's the experience of those out there who have made stick tang knives?

Doug
 
Many of my blades are stick tang. You do as you wish Doug, but that area in question, after tempering is not going to be any more brittle than the blade. Just less mass. Once assembled, the grip itself should add the necessary strength the tang may need. I have never seen a stick tang that was broken. There may be an example somewhere, but I've not seen it. If it worried me a great amount, I would draw the temper down a bit more than the blade, but I never bother, and have never had a comeback. A stick tang in most any material, reenforced with the voids filled with a good epoxy, is a very strong arrangement. I do use a generous transition from ricasso to stick however, and make the first inch or so as wide as practical.
 
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Doug, I heat treat around 2/3 of the length of all my tangs, the point where I do my Rockwell testing is where the guard will go. That being said, I do not cut 90 degree shoulders but use round files for the step down from the ricasso to the tang. Also just like Wick I do not do large step downs from the ricasso, instead I step down just a bit to allow for shoulders for the guard to seat on and then do another gradual step down behind the guard.

Some people like pearlite, but tempered martensite beats it in both strength and toughness. The strength part is obvious, but if you temper martensite at very high temperatures the lines between tempering and spheroidizing become blurred and that is some pretty tough stuff. Even when people have to bend a knife, as in the ABS test, I am rather picky about this. I measure 90 degrees from the ricasso, not the handle. I hate seeing a tang bend causing a blade to be even more unusable than if the blade was bent, it just feels cheap to me, like it should be stamped “Pakistan”.
 
Doug,

One thing to keep in mind also is if you want a pin through the tang and cleaning up guard shoulders after HT. I generally go LRB's route and full harden tang and all then torch temper the tang and ricasso. Draw the tang back twice and at a minimum be sure to get enough of the ricasso to file fit your guard shoulders.

-Josh
 
Thanks for the replies. I am going to cut the shoulders between the tang and ricasso with a round file to prevent forming stress risers. I think that I'll leave just the end of the tang soft so that I can drill the pin hole easily. The reason that I was worried is that the last knife that I made a stick tang on snapped while I was grinding it down to final dimensions. I might have been a crack that started when I forged the tang down on my guillotine tool. Being that these were about the first stick tangs that I have done, I've only made a couple of others, I figured I'd ask how other makers have handled theirs. I'm also leaving a little more thickness in these tangs. Their about 1/8" now, maybe a hair thicker, One of them I will be cutting a very shallow shoulder on the faces of the tang to ride over the tang hole. The other will sit in a groove cut in the end of the handle.

Doug
 
Yep.

Even when people have to bend a knife, as in the ABS test, I am rather picky about this. I measure 90 degrees from the ricasso, not the handle. I hate seeing a tang bend causing a blade to be even more unusable than if the blade was bent, it just feels cheap to me, like it should be stamped “Pakistan”.
 
Some good points guys.

I personally don’t see it quite as black and white as some seem to, or even as a strictly metallurgical question. There are several variables to consider such as geometry, alloy, intended purpose of the knife or concept, personal preferences and of course heat treating... maybe even some others.

I think they all can make a great knife if thoughtfully applied and in keeping with the intended purpose and/or overall concept of the knife, and have used them all in different scenarios with very good results.

Some very well known makers say they never quench the tang and some say they always quench the tang and leave it the same temper as the rest of the blade… I guess those are the extremes and both have their logic and reasoning.

About the only "absolute" I can think of, if any, is,... if the tang bends or snaps during testing from normal to hard use, some adjustments need to be made, for sure.
 
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I make hidden tangs exclusively and have tried all combinations as to heat treat. After fifteen years and 500 blades I like the overall results of a full harden and temper, followed by stress relief with a propane torch, with a sheet of wet sand. The grain refinement has been taken care of in the area of the ricasso and tang by normalizing and quenching from critical. I reason that if there is a failure in this area, it is because of stresses along the filing lines and sharp bends. If working with cable and the like, I think this technique is a must.
 
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