Synthetic Motor

BD Blades

Well-Known Member
Does anyone use synthetic motor oil for quenching? I know this info must already be out here, but I did a search and could not find it.

I switched form mineral oil to sythetic motor oil and got much better results. Guess i do need to get some real quench oil though. The motor oil is much easier to get locally though.
 
Well aint that thinking outside the box!?! I hope Kevin Cashen will chime in and give his 20 cents on the pros and cons, wouldn't it be awesome if we could pick up our quench oil from Wal Mart! It's probably cheaper too! I'm guessing the viscosity of the oil is going to be one of the most important aspects, but what do I know? NADA is the answer, the only way I would know if that would be a good alternative would be to do some actual testing, with the right equipment, to know for sure. But a great idea! Rex
 
I guess I should at least add the steel I was using was 52100 and the oil was 20W-50 sythetic motor cycle oil. (no slip promoters or something like that) I was just going for the weight not the motorcycle type.

I did 3 edge quenches using a torch and 3 tempers at about 380F. Got pretty decent cutting results.
 
If your getting that good of cutting results why not do some testing? Cut everything you can get your hands on. When I want to really test a knife, I head to the woods and cut everything in my way, then pickout a few sapplings of the 2 to 3'' range, see how many whacks it takes to get all the way through, hanging vines are a great way to see, kinda like free hanging rope, or at least the.springy kind! REX
 
Hanging vines or rope, and green saplings are more a question of weight, and geometry in the edge than acuall edge holding ability. If you had to quench 3 times, something is not right. And, if you tempered at only 380°, and the edge is not at least slightly brittle, that also says that the blade did not get hard enough in the quench. If the results suit your desires, then that is fine, but you could do better with a steel that is cheaper, easier to work, and easier to HT. I really don't think anyone really has to guess at what Kevin will likely say about synthetic motor oil. It's made for lubricating motors.
 
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The cuts on the rope were slicing cuts, not push or chop cuts. The blade is about 3 - 3 1/3" inches ant not that heavy, I don't think it would make much of a chopper. I don't know if I had to quench it three times, but I chose to. What kind of results should I be getting?
 
The Results you need are the ones where you get a hard enough edge to HOLD it and not be brittle. Which means if you put it through some reasonably tough cutting tests, (I usually make larger blades, and do enjoy taking them to the woods and cutting "everything in my way", which if I'm on the trail to the creek has a little bit of purpose to it.), of course the cutting tests should reflect the type of knife it is puposed for. After making as many cuts as it/I can, on whatever media is available,ie., rope, paper, cardboard, etc., while taking note how much effort it took to make these cuts, the general or accepted way the rope cut is done is by using the 1st 1" of the blade, and making either "crunching cuts" or by slicing. Crunch cuts are a sign of a sharper blade, if the rope is being cut by simply pressing down on it...That's good! If your having to gnaw your way through it, I'd say the test is over! At the end of testing, I look for blade damage, chipping, rolling or any kind of deformation. Then with mine, I check to see if it will shave...if it does, I am happy! With my big blades, I usually will take it to my log of Moc Orange (Osage Orange) and give it a few whacks! I do this before, I handle it, before I've spent hours sanding and polishing to show a Hamon, that way I'm not wasting time on an inferior blade that still needs to be Ht'd correctly!

Do know, that you can get 5 gallons of Maxim's DT-48 for about 65.00 plus shipping, that was the price the last time I bought it, shipping is a PITA!! It gets a hazordous materials surcharge, that drives the cost of shipping way up! But, to Alabama the cost was still under a 100 bucks for 5 gallons! Which has lasted me over a year, that's with losing about 2 gallons on a poorly welded vertical quench tank! If I hadn't tried to use that thing I'd still have plenty! Which is good, the least I want to quench in is 3 gallons, I prefer 5 if I can ever get a container to hold it! I have came close to getting a PVC pipe and thought to myself," I'll be careful!" I didn't do it, because I know the first time I needed to not let it go,...it would be dropped! My old quench tank is still in good shape, it's just not what I want! I've still got my poorly welded vertical quench tank on my bench, waiting for me to JB weld the entire seam all the way around the bottom, if that works, I'll be HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY!!! If not, I'll be SICK!!!

BD, personally, I'd either stick with 10XX steels and at the very least one of the veggie oils you can get in bulk at Sam's or WalMart, for not much money. 1084 is the very best steel when you don't have the proper equipment to HT it. Aldo's 1084 can be Ht'd in a forge or with an Oxy/Act torch, and tempered in you rkitchen oven or a cheap yard sale Toaster oven. That's my 2cents, Rex
 
Thanks for all the great advice guys.

If anyone has more comments, please keep them coming. I am trying to make the best performing knife I can. I have some skill and equipment limitations, but hopefully they will both grow.
 
Thanks for all the great advice guys.

If anyone has more comments, please keep them coming. I am trying to make the best performing knife I can. I have some skill and equipment limitations, but hopefully they will both grow.



BD, if we had a poster of the month award I would give it to you, perhaps a vorpal sword award for the sharpest poster. To be honest I avoided this thread for the same reason I avoid most quench oil alternative threads, they are very volatile and tempers flare. You however have displayed how a true scholar, hungry for knowledge and driven to improve in any way, receives input on new methods and ideas. Instead of digging in and becoming defensive when others suggested possible avenues of improvement, you showed your mettle with this last post. With the character you displayed here I would suspect your skills and knowledge with grow quite fast, and I hope you will share it with us here as it does.
 
Thanks Kevin, I really appreciate your comments.

I am trying to make the best performing blade I can. Unfortunatley sometimes I have to use what I can get ahold of and what I can afford.
 
Thanks Kevin, I really appreciate your comments.

I am trying to make the best performing blade I can. Unfortunatley sometimes I have to use what I can get ahold of and what I can afford.

There is nothing wrong with struggling, I think just about all of us have had to struggle at one time or another, the main thing during this time is to learn everything you can! Become a spong! Absorb as much info as you can, make a notebook, and write down everything you want to do and know, and when you come across some good info, write it down in your notebook! A really big thing, is to write down any questions you come up with, then search the internet, books, as many resources as you can find, a note about the internet, there are so many "experts" on-line, it is mind boggling to believe that many people have the techinical knowledge they claim, don't take just any info from just anybody as the end all be all answer, LEARN WHO IS RELIABLE! Kevin Cashen is reliable, you have an incredible wealth of info right here in this one guy! Search all you can to answer the questions you have and if you can't find the answers to your questions then you should ask those questions on forums like KD. With KD being the best! It is an opinion, but I feel like you will be recieved better on this forum than the others out there, sometimes the others surprise me (meaning their actually nice...more like a shocker if they were), most of the time they seem to do their best to make people feel dumb! That's my perception, you draw your own conclusions. But once you have done as much research as you think you can do and found as much info as you think is available, then ask your questions on Knife dogs. I feel that if you show that you have done some leg work that you aren't going into this wanting to be spoon fed, you will get a much warmer welcome, plus you'll be able to show that you are invested into this thing as well, Knife making for most of us is a passion, with that passion comes a responsibility to help the newb's! I've been a newb for 4 years, I really don't know when I won't be one, the amount of information needed to make the best knife you can is...let's just say that the learning curve in knifemaking is SHARP! My favorite pun! But it truly is, I had to submerge myself into all things knife making, my poor wife gets that glazed over look in her eye when I start talking about it, my poor son, well, he's kinda like my partner in crime, he's not into as much as I am, at 13 he has other interest, but by submerging yourself, I mean always having something to read, magazines, books, always have something that has knives in it, and not just any knives, I mean custom hand forged knives, when you can't read any more, start studying the knives themselves, observe how the blades flow along the spine, notice how the handle transitions from handle to guard to blade, look at as many of these type knives as you can, and notice the simple things about how the maker made it, think about what the maker was thinking when he designed it, man I can keep going with how I have gone about this obsession, and if you need anything, if I can help, I'll tell you I can, and if I can't help, I'll say that as well. If I know the answer to a question, I never mind helping ANYONE! If I don't know the answer, I don't mind being quiet and letting those with the knowledge speak up, the only thing wrong with not knowing something is if you refuse to learn, now everyone won't have knowledge about all things knife. There are those that have more knowledge about certain aspects of the craft while others are more knowledge able about other areas. That is why this forum is so great, there are so many guys here that are willing to share their knowledge, that in itself is a gift, you can unwrap this gift by trying the search menu when ever you have a question FIRST! That should always be your first step, there is a wealth of information in this forum. Like I said, no one will mind answering questions, but if you show some effort, some due dilligence on your part, you will get a much warmer welcome, and lot more info than you expect, anything you need or want to ask, you can PM or send me an email, I don't mind any questions, just keep in mind that you'll limit your knowledge base by about a - (negative) million times!!!! Rex
 
Thanks and I will definitely take note of all your advice, and takes notes also.

This is a great forum, Thanks to all for their help.
 
Thanks and I will definitely take note of all your advice, and takes notes also.

This is a great forum, Thanks to all for their help.

One more thing, I noticed you're in Southhaven, Ms., not sure how far away that is from me, but you've got an open invitation to my shop, just give me a little notice if your ever in my area, I'm about 25 to 30 miles above Montgomery, so if you're ever in the area, give me a holler and I'll have you banging on steel in no time! If we have enough time, I think we could have you on your way to a finished knife that you can finish, once you get home. Maybe, if it isn't too complex and you have enough time, we could have you one finished and Ht'd before you leave! With you doing 80 to 90% of the work, that way you get to learn! I'll supply the materials, all you have to supply is the willingness to absorb all you can and also share some of your knowledge as well! BTW, what is you name? I really don't want to call you 'BD', if your Momma named you that she's got a heck of a sense of humor! Rex
 
... there are so many "experts" on-line, it is mind boggling to believe that many people have the techinical knowledge they claim, don't take just any info from just anybody as the end all be all answer, LEARN WHO IS RELIABLE! Kevin Cashen is reliable, you have an incredible wealth of info right here in this one guy! ...



My friend Rex is far too kind to me. I continue the struggle for knowledge every day and like it that way. I feel that if I am ever done learning, then I am just done. I will help anybody else in that quest in any way I can, but I just insist on one thing- don’t just take my word for it, research and verify on your own. Should information that I offer ever become “unquestionable” just because it came from me, then I have failed in my ultimate goal and have become part of the problem and not the solution. I can offer one very good litmus test to sort out the slick salesmen and week old WIP experts from sources you can trust. The secret was given to me in one word from my good friend Roman Landes- why? Always ask why something happens, the why’s are more important than anything else if you ever want to be more than a blind follower of other peoples recipes. You would be astonished at the number of people I have encountered from beginners to makers with 40 years behind them, and even PhD. material scientists, who when questioned as to why they believe a process works will simply answer “I don’t care how or why it works, I just know it does!”

Without knowing “why” something works, you have no idea of if it even works at all, despite the results, since any number of variables could account for those results. Nine times out of ten the results will come from some direction you were not even looking at because you were so focused on what you believed caused the results you wanted to see. The most valuable results of any study or tests are the ones that prove you dead wrong and force you to look at those other variables. So when trying to sort out valuable information from a sales pitch for somebody to boost their self-image by having you follow their recipe, why, is your best tool. This is not to say that just because a person memorized a bunch of $5 words that they actually have any true insight into why. A person who is incapable of describing the “whys” in terms anybody can understand, probably has no better grasp of it than the recipe follower; anybody can memorize words, but understanding them involves the concepts that those words describe even if the words are not used. Good information is already filtered by a detailed understanding of “why” and is readily offered along with it, without being veiled behind either intimidating technobabble or quaint folksy platitudes, and it welcomes questions for explanation and requests for supporting data.

Sorry, I would offer more on the actual stated topic of this thread but my involvement in education and other groups has now caused me to avoid any liability in discussing automotive, and other products with possible health concerns, not intended by the manufacturer for quenching.
 
That's why you are such a good source, Kevin. You do question and seek the answer to the question why. Let's face it, for some people the "I do it this way because I was taught to do it this way and it works for me, even if I don't know why" works for some people. I've seen it in medicine and, even though doctors who think this way may not be bad doctors, they're not the best that they can be either. I remember the fuss we had when an old coagulation test was removed from the list of approved tests by Medicare, Medicaid, and most insurances. Some of these doctors who had hardly learned one new thing since medical school had fits. Just like some knife makers who are dedicated to doing things a certain way because that's the way that they do it and everyone else has to too. It's a shame, but that's the way it is.

Doug
 
That's why you are such a good source, Kevin. You do question and seek the answer to the question why. Let's face it, for some people the "I do it this way because I was taught to do it this way and it works for me, even if I don't know why" works for some people. I've seen it in medicine and, even though doctors who think this way may not be bad doctors, they're not the best that they can be either. I remember the fuss we had when an old coagulation test was removed from the list of approved tests by Medicare, Medicaid, and most insurances. Some of these doctors who had hardly learned one new thing since medical school had fits. Just like some knife makers who are dedicated to doing things a certain way because that's the way that they do it and everyone else has to too. It's a shame, but that's the way it is.

Doug
 
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