Proper use of the WIP threads.

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Steven Janik

SUPERMOD & AWARDS BOSS
I'm going out on a limb here and clear my mind about how some of these Work In Progress are being accepted and abused.

In my honest opinion we are asking some of the greatest makers in the world (definitely NOT including myself) to spill their guts and show us the methods that they have invented and refined over many years of trial and error. The true purpose is to show new makers how things can be done with the tools available. I personally have done a WIP on a kit that Tracy put out of a framelock folder and skipped the milling machine and high powered equiptment to show how it can be done with a drill press and a Dremel tool. Using what's available to the biggest share of our builders is how you progress makers into innovators and KnifeDogs is by far the biggest advocate of this.

Unfortunately what has happened is that some people are making dead knock offs of the WIP project and trying to sell them at reduced prices. This will eventually put an end to any valuable WIP threads and we will all go back to the drawing board. I will say that some guys are still doing the right thing and using the overall flavor of the WIP but not copying the piece exactly.

As an avid fan of ANYONE'S WIP and an admitted recipient of the vast knowledge presented in them, I don't want to see them go away, nor do I want to prevent newcomers from adding in their new ideas that we can all use.

Post your thoughts. I think this could be an interesting discussion.

Thanks,
Steve
 
I can't think of any examples of seeing someone rip-off a complete design from a WIP here, but I am far less in-tune with all of this anyway. I would hate to have the amazing craftsmen (yes Steve, you too) get a bad taste for the WIPs and quit doing them.

FOR ME, what I love about the WIPs is seeing the technical ways of actually DOING parts of the task. I don't care about design or materials necessarily. I have looked at your Bulldog Framelock WIP Over and Over and OVER as I am building my first liner lock (chow chow) just to make sure I am getting the process correct and in the right order.
 
Brad,
You know that this was not intended for you or the multitude of guys who are respectful of others generosity.
I just spent some time this weekend talking with someone who was contemplating ending his WIPs because of copycats who attempted to sell their clones at reduced rates.

This would be a tragedy for this forum.

Steve
 
I take a lot of information away from the WIP threads and enjoy seeing how knives are made by the professionals. I think it would be a shame if knifemakers here stopped doing them. However if they are getting ripped off I can see thier point about stopping them.
 
When I first started I was amazed at how freely established makers shared knowledge. I don't know very much but what I know I share freely because I vowed to do the same because I believe it advances the craft of knifemaking. If someone doesn't want people to use the knowledge they share in a WIP then they shouldn't make it in the first place. Just my .02.
 
Thanks Darrin but I think you may have missed the point or I didn't explain it clearly enough.

It's not that anyone wants the WIPs to end, just the opposite. But......a few people have copied the work EXACTLY and are trying to sell it for less than the original, they even contacted the maker and asked him to help price the piece. By all means, use a method, share a tip, follow someones lead, but make the product your own.

If makers ended their WIPs then most of us, and admittedly you, would suffer from losing the knowledge that is freely given here.

Let's not have anything change, we all enjoy it here and we have the world on a string when it comes to shared knowledge. Very few, if any, other forums help their members like KD does. The Bossman gives out freebies and everyone has a hand in product testing and advancement. That is unheard of anywhere else.

It's great here. I for one want it to stay that way.

Steve
 
No Steve, I understood you perfectly. I think you misunderstood me. This subject may be like one of those photos where one person sees one image and the other person sees something completely different, even though they are looking at the exact same picture. Whether the practice is accepted or not, people are gonna use the info. in a WIP to make copies and sell them. If I had some great idea for a new aspect of knifemaking or making an existing process easier I would freely share it and EXPECT others to use it and profit from it. But thats just me. Maybe I'm wired wrong. People make EXACT copies of Loveless, Scagel, & others all the time and nobody says a word about that.
 
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I would hate if the WIP threads ended because makers felt they were losing out in the end. I am doing a lot of reading in preparing to make a few knives and all the WIP thread and YouTube videos are great ways to learn. It would be a shame.
 
I know people including me have copied some of the great designs to exacting details. Especially in Loveless styles although he wasnt dead at the time, he allowed it saying that "imitation is a form of flattery". The differance as I see it is he wrote a book showing exact details on how to make his knives or at least a certain model of his knives. Robert Loveless profited for many years from the sale of that book. Willian F Moran did the exact same thing. I have both of these books in my library.

As a Master Smith I profit not from doing a Work In Progress but in fact go out of my way to help newer (sometimes not so newer) makers learn how to make a knife and am happy to do so. Heck, I won the "Educator of the Year" award 2 years running here on Knifedogs and mostly because of my WIP's here and proud of it. The internet is a wonderful thing for new makers, I didnt have that privilege when I started 12 years before we got our first computer.

There are no copyrights on our designs. Most all of mine are "one of a kind" designs that neither I or my client would like copied. I cant stop people from copying my work but prefer that they would use my training from the wip's to fly on their own.

It simply isnt true that every knife design has already been made. Just sit down and draw one, its yours now. There may be another one like it somewhere but if you had both knives at once to look at there will be many differences.

Sometimes I will look in the annual and be taken with a knife or two. I find a blade I like on one and a handle I like on another a guard from another, you know what I'm saying. I put it on paper and its a totally new knife. Now look at it in the morning and you'll see something about it that needs some changing. Just do that for 3 or 4 days with small changes each day and you will have the perfect knife design and you can call it your own.
 
After thinking about this for a while I have drawn the following two conclusions. The first one is about reputation. I’m a part time maker with no “name or reputation” (have only sold 2 knives). I decide one day to build an exact replica of an Ed Caffrey, Bruce Bump, Kevin Cashen, Steve Janick, etc knife and sell it at a cut rate. My knife no matter how good or perfect will have one huge flaw; it will not have the original makers name on it. Any of the makers I listed can sell knives because of their reputation. You can copy the knife but not the maker’s reputation. The second thing I thought was people who buy cheap copies of well known makers knives are not the customer base for the well known maker. I use myself as an example I can’t afford a Bruce Bump original Bowie. If I bought a copy of one of his knives it would be no loss to him because I’m not a perspective customer.

Personally I don’t like people copying others work unless the original maker has passed on. A copy of a Loveless knife is now more of a tribute to the original than a knock off.
 
Darrin,
I hope you are correct. No one wants to see the WIPs go away, but I'll bet there will be some changes to them. The infinite detail of some parts don't need to be shown. I know for instance, that on one of Bruce's pistols there were several pictures of the sear detail and how he achieves the half @@@@ position, this is just frosting on the cake of an otherwise perfect WIP. We won't see that again, and everyone will suffer just a tiny bit as details are left out.
 
Hello and good day, I have learned alot from many of the Wip's and info freely given on this board. I also have made some great friends that I feel will be life long friends who I share freely any info I can, and some who have taken the time and shared freely with me. This kinda thing is priceless and should not be taken lightly or abused.

I also want to take this opportunity to say THANK YOU.. and whole hearted to all the guys and gals that have shared info and or taught the next generation of makers. Be it on this forum or elsewhere. I agree with Bruce, each knife is unique and different, But the problem is that there are some that will make exact copy's of others work, tracing the profile from there computer screen, etc. Then go through life telling themselves and others how awesome they are!! lol This will never change. in every area I have ever worked. Its the same.. People stealing designs and cutting each others throats. For the most part.. Knife makers as a whole are much better then that. yet some are not.

I was reading on another forum http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/826268-who-can-make-this?highlight=Randy+HHH Where someone posted a photo of one of my knives. Un unmistakably HHH :) The poster was asking if someone would make them one like it. Within a few minutes there were makers that jumped up and said I can make you one like that. Then a few more people made comments directing the poster to me. If I remember correctly Mr. Sanders was one of the guys in this thread. So Im not surprised by your stand here.

The fact is.. Like Bruce said.. That knife in question was the combined effort of design, and redesign.. until I was happy with it.. and every aspect of it. I fought myself from posting on that thread. as well as this one. But decided to vent a little.



Making money or knives using techniques taught to you through WIP or by someone else is expected. The point your missing and most likely will NEVER GET is that with sharing there is also a un written rule of respecting.. First each other and yourself enough to not wait for a opportunity to pick the pocket of the guy who was kind enough to share his often hard earned experience. Rant over. I lied, Im not done yet!! LMAO!! :) But Ill stop for now!
 
Hello Guys,
I haven't posted any WIP's that I can remember? Or at least they were very simple.
Anyway. I truly enjoy many of them here by several makers.


I was in Bob Loveless's shop in Riverside about 10 years ago and he would let newbies or any who wanted trace his patterns for his drop point hunter's etc. He got the idea for the tapered tang from a European Chef knife. So he combined many influences.


His statement was, Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery!
You can copy everything but my name.

Each maker will have his own level of comfort with this and that's fine.
I really appreciate the WIPs here and understand if a maker wishes to leave out a step or two.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
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If you read my words in that thread it said that I would make a knife SIMILAR to that not exactly like that. And yes I would do it again because it was a basic drop point hunter. Were you the original designer/maker of the drop point hunter Mr. Haas? Saying that knife was "unmistakably HHH" is hilarious. The only way anybody would know you made that knife would be to look at the makers mark. If you think otherwise you have ego problems.
 
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OK, What I had intended to be a sane discussion on HOW TO's and WIP's doesn't need to get out of hand.
Everyone seems to have had their say, so this is CLOSED
 
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