W2 heat treat Vs. 1095 heat treat?

Drew Riley

Well-Known Member
I've been reading up on heat treating w2, and it looks like the heat treat temps are all very similar to treating 1095. Are the processes basically the same?
 
The problem with the W series is that the carbon content varies so much. However, if you have W2 like The New Jersey Steel Baron carries it will be a whole lot like 1095 because the only difference will be a little vanadium. Just enough to form some vanadium carbides but not enough to effect the depth of hardening. I have seen a "typical assay" from another supplier that would put their W2 at closer to 1084 with a little vanadium and tungsten.

Doug
 
I've been reading up on heat treating w2, and it looks like the heat treat temps are all very similar to treating 1095. Are the processes basically the same?



To be blunt, NO! W-2 spec sheets are iffy at best, the reason is because there are so many different variations of W-2 available.All W-2 are not created equally! All of the W-2 I've used from Aldo was clay coating for a hamon, most of it was bar stock, 1/4" thick except for some round bar that I forged out. My advice would be to get the chem annalysis on the steel you have first, if it came from Aldo I can tell you how I HT mine. And I'm sure there will be some that disagree, but it works well for.

I put the blade in the kiln cold, with a chunk of mild steel, ramp up to 1425 to 1450, (depending on the thickness of the blade) minimum soak time is 5 minutes, maybe less for thin stock. Once you reach temp and and right before soak time is over, put the chunk of mild steel in your quench oil to warm it up (unless using Parks 50, or have another way of heating your oil, this method has works well for me).

The most important part is to get the temp of the blade from 1425/1450 to about 600 in 1 second! So you have to have your kiln and quench tank oriented to where you can do it in one smooth motion, I usually do a couple of practice runs to make sure I'm not missing something in my way. I got these directions from Don Hanson, once I reduced the temp I started getting better results, ever more so when I want to pop a hamon. Hope this helps. Rex
 
The W2 I have is 3/32" thick from Aldo. I went ahead and set my oven to 1500F, placed the blade (small paring knife) in for about 10 minutes, and immediately quenched in parks 50.

I initially felt like my file was biting, but I'm beginning to think that it was just the scale from heat treat. Once I got past that, it seems like it was skating as it should.
 
I use aldos w2 in 1/4 thickness and heat it to 1500 let it sit for 10 min and quench in conola oil then temper. It is the same as I do for 1095.
 
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Well....., all I can say is my experience is a lot different from y'alls, my 1st W-2 blade I forged from some 1/2" round bar stock from Aldo, and being W-2 is loosley considered a cleaner form of 1095, I did the HT the same. I couldn't get an edge to hold for nothin'! So I set it on the back burners for a while and later picked up some of Aldo's W-2 in bar stock, and then actually researched the best formula to HT this steel AND then got the WICKED hamon my heart so desired. It took 3 HT's but I finally got it right. All it took was looking up Don Hansons receipe that he uses, which is what I posted earlier. I don't think its a stretch to say Don is the MASTER on W-2, so I went with what he said. Once I lowerd my temps and increased my soak time. SUCCESS! With the hardness and the hamon.

If you got your steel from Aldo, you can go on his web site and look up the chemical analysis, if I remember correctly it was about .91 carbon content, or something like that. It could be that you may have to run a series of experiments to see which way works best. Also, remember you can re-HT a blade up to 3 times, that's as far as I have gone, maybe more, but I would test it to death before I sent it to a customer.

I think on my next W-2 blade, something simple, I'm going to do an interupted quench in water for 2-3 seconds then out of it and into the quench oil. The only thing that Don does that I don't is that he uses Parks 50, I use DT-48 from Maxim. I've also considered using a torch and heating the edge while the spine is 1/3 of the way in water, watching closely for the color to change and once I've gotten it evenely heated for the soak time i want, then quench in oil, just an idea I've been pondering, I'll probably try it on 1084 first, just to get a feel for it.

You can ask this same question on other forums and you will get a lot of different answers, a few will agree with each other, but most won't. Only because of the different variations of W-2 on the market creates different experience.

Canola would work pretty well, it has low viscosity and should cool it down quickly. Hopefully not too quickly, which results in that sickening "PING" sound, water can<and will> do the same thing, but I'm hoping that an inteupted quench with water <probably brine>, then oil will make a difference in it not PINGING!
If you would like the post I have where Don tells how he does his HT, I have it at home on my puter and would behappy to share it with y'all, just let me know, Hope this helps, Rex
 
1500 may be hotter than you need to go for W2 of that type. If you want a hamon, 1425-1450 is where you want to be. If you want slightly higher hardness, Mr. Cashen recommends 1475.
 
Hey guys - I have had a lot of good results going with 1430 - 1450 with a soak of 3-5 min. I quench interrupted water for 3 sec then oil. You would get almost the same with Parks without any of the fear factor.

All of these below are either w2 from Aldo, or a mixture of low manganese 1075 and w2 from Aldo.



mike wood's knife blade close-up.JPG

IMG_0473.JPG

IMG_0367.JPG

15067106637.jpg

I listed a range of temps because I have been using my forge for heat treatment. Not as precise as I would like. I bought a kiln, as you can see in another post. I will be doing some experimenting on 1440F versus 1500F with w2 and low mang 1075 with controlled soak times of about 5 min to get more info on this issue. I have given it a lot of thought, just like y'all have.

great topic. thanks for all the input.
kc
 
Kevin,
Since no one else has said it, I have to say that your hamon is~ SICK ~! When you water quench, are using a brine? Or plain water? I do know that W-2 has to be quenched quick. How thick do you leave the edge? It makes me nervous just thinking of using water, I know all to that the success rate will not be great. Leaving a bit more thickness at the edge would make me a little more less apprehensive..., just a little.

Also, do you heat your water and if so what's the temp? Extremely beautiful blade there, I don't see how it could have turned out better! Keep up the great work, Rex
 
Rex - thanks for the kind words. I am using tap water, as hot as it comes out from my hot tap. Probably about 120F by the time I use it.

Yes, I leave the blade thicker. On a short knife, like most of those above (the pic where you can't see the handle is the tip of a 26" dao), about the thickness of a dime. On a sword, about the thickness of a nickel.

I am etching a blade now, but it is low mang 1075. I am curious to see how it compares to w2. It should compare well, but I will know more in about 10 hours. A lot of the trick is in etching with mild acid like vinegar or lemon juice and counter-polishing with FF pumice on hamon and below and Mother's mag aluminmum polish above. If the blade has a pattern you want to show, etch 2x with ferric, 4 or 5 x with vinegar, and then one last fast etch with ferric. Ferric chloride is better to show grain patterns in steel (why we use it for other pattern welding, too). But, it is too aggressive for a lot of the hamon stuff.

thanks again. I gotta polish a few before I can forge up another batch and test the kiln.

good info in this thread.
kc
 
Thanks Kevin,
I use the Radio Shack PCB etchant cut 3 to 1, it works very well for me, I'm happy to see that there is someone else that is getting the same reults from the same temps I'm using, I'll definitley be trying the interupted water quench, should make a hamon SCREAM!!! Thanks Bro`, Rex
 
Rex - I used ferric chloride (that is what the Archer etchant is) for years. Then, I watched Walter Sorrell's polishing vid. He uses lemon juice. I tried vinegar as a substitute since it is in the same range of strength. You will be SHOCKEd at the difference in hamons just from switching. If you are working with something that is subtle pattern weld with a hamon, too, you want to etch a couple times in ferric chloride (I usually etch everything twice in mild ferric) and then switch to vinegar or lemon juice. Vinegar is great because you just suspend the thing in a tube of vinegar and forget it for 2 to 8 hours. Repeat 3 to 5 times. Do the pumice thing in between, for the hamon and either worn 2500 grit paper above or Mother's or flitz. Mothers is best. If you have the subtle grain like a Chinese or Japanese blade, then give a final short etch in ferric. Ferric is better for showing patterns, vinegar and lemon juice are better for showing hamons. They just are, I have done a lot of controlled tests with these (I am a scientist in my day job).

looking forward to seeing more of your work. This is at least what seems to work for me.

I apologize if this sounds like I , "know it all." I sure as hell don't. I am just trying to pool and share experience and info. Please take it as such. Not trying to invalidate anyone else's methods or info. The reason I am stating this stuff as strongly as I do is because I want other people to experience the huge improvement I did from trying these ideas. I am excited about this stuff. That's all. take care,

kc
 
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Kevin,
I'll eventually need to get some straight feric, but I haven't been able to find it reasonably priced locally. I had found the crystals one time, but lost the web site. Where do you get your feric from?

Now are you saying to do the etch in lemon juice? The PCB etchant is dilluted feric, and I dillute more when I mix it, I haven't had any problems getting my hamons to POP, unless it's learning the HT for a different steel, then there is a learning curve. There is a process I want to try for Hting 1084 (would be the only steel I would feel comfortable to try this with), using a rosebud tip and acetylene torch, watching the color move toward the spine, and quenching when it is evenly heated, I'd probably put the spine in water to insure it stays cool. I've heard the hamons done this way are SICK!!!

The way I was taught to do a hamon is a lot different than the way most everyone else does it, it's super simple, when I'm ready to etch, I wipe the etchant on the blade, keeping it wet for 90 seconds, then neutralize, then WD-40 and grate some red rouge on the blade to make a slurry, then the polishing starts. After this step is done and A LOT of rubbing, it will show what you got, after that I use Flitz or Mothers Wheel and Mag polish to make the shiney parts shine. I guess the rouge and WD-40 are similar to pumice, it does work really well and I don't have to have a large container of acid.

Do let me know if you're using lemon juice to etch with, I'm curious if that works, I would like to try it. Also, can you direct me to the video you referenced? Thanks Bud, Rex
 
Just a little bit of an update:

I started grinding my bevels on a little paring knife that I'm making from the 3/32 W2 I got from Aldo, and the stuff almost didn't seem like it wanted to grind! I was using a fairly new 120 grit cubitron, and if the effor it took to grind this stuff is any indication, I think it's going to finish out quite well.

Almost ready to put handles on and sharpen, then comes the real testing.
 
Just a little bit of an update:

I started grinding my bevels on a little paring knife that I'm making from the 3/32 W2 I got from Aldo, and the stuff almost didn't seem like it wanted to grind! I was using a fairly new 120 grit cubitron, and if the effor it took to grind this stuff is any indication, I think it's going to finish out quite well.

Almost ready to put handles on and sharpen, then comes the real testing.

Are you planning on a hamon? Just curious how much your into torture! Rex
 
Yes - lemon juice or vinegar works very much better than any mixture of ferric chloride for making hamons more visible. I have tested both (ok, all 3 really). I used ferric chloride for years, too. We were all taught to use it, and you can get good results with it. But, you will get better results, immediately, with vinegar or lemon juice. If you want to rub the etchant on the blade rather than let the blade soak, use lemon juice. It takes less time than vinegar. I am serious, the difference will shock you. It is really amazing.
kc
 
Oh - when choosing steels for trying to make hamons, you will get the best results using LOW MANGANESE and ZERO CHROMIUM. So, instead of 1084, use low manganese 1075 from Aldo. It heat treats just as simply, only it doesn't have the manganese. Therefore, it is more, "shallow hardening." That is good for hamons. That is why w2 and some of the 1095 out there work so very well for hamons.

If you don't want a hamon, and just want a simple heat treatment, 1084 is probably a little better.

look at the bauernwehr I posted in Bubba-san's forum to see low mang 1075 hamon. The pic is not great, but you get the idea. It is the only alloy that really competes with w2 for hamons. W2 holds edges better, but 1075 is more shock resistant.

I think the rubbing with the rouge is a lot like the pumice, but there is one difference - the pumice is actually LARGER than the grit size that the hamon had been polished to. This larger grit size below the line of the hamon when compared to the polish above the hamon leads to a whitening of the area below the hamon. All of the slightly larger scratches seem whiter in comparison. I don't know how the grain size of red rouge compares to the polish you are getting above the line of the hamon. How fine is red rouge? FF pumice seems to be somewhere around 800 grit (it is really a range, but there are enough particles of this approx size to make it look as if all of the particles are that size).

thanks for sharing. there are several ways to get similar results. It is fun to hear how other people do things.

kc
 
Yes - lemon juice or vinegar works very much better than any mixture of ferric chloride for making hamons more visible. I have tested both (ok, all 3 really). I used ferric chloride for years, too. We were all taught to use it, and you can get good results with it. But, you will get better results, immediately, with vinegar or lemon juice. If you want to rub the etchant on the blade rather than let the blade soak, use lemon juice. It takes less time than vinegar. I am serious, the difference will shock you. It is really amazing.
kc

Perhaps a little off subject, but have you found that this works well for bringing out damascus patterns too?
 
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