Small Shop Stainless?

gaelic forge

Well-Known Member
I poked around and looked for stainless info and did not find what I needed, so here is the question for some of you folks that have plenty of experience with stainless.

What is a good stainless that can be heat treated successfully in a small shop. I would like something that does not have to be sent out for heat treating. More expense.

I have made knives of carbon steel for some time and only recently have some customers requested stainless, hence my question. I understand this is subjective to some extent.....some will say one thing, some another, but go ahead and fire away. I suspect there may be others here new to stainless, or toying with the idea of using this metal. I have been pretty much "old school" and prefer 15N20 or L-6. And if anyone out there know where I can find 15N20 Uddaholm Swedish steel I would be grateful. The only 15N20 I can find is the thin stuff used in Damascus. Many thanks!

Robert @ Gaelic Forge
 
From my understanding, you really just need solid and reliable temp control so you can manage the soak times at accurate temps. After that it's just a question of using the right foil wrap for the top temp you'll get to and either plates or some other quench method. The trend I saw was away from just straight air cooling even when the steel is fine with that slow a quench, just to avoid deformation due to various factors. There was a good thread on this recently where folks who actually DO stainless in house discussed their methods. Personally, after pricing out the equipment, ongoing costs for it, and the other factors, I'm going to be sending mine out. The slightly higher price per blade is more than compensated for by the lack of high up front equipment costs, worrying about calibration and dealing with all the other issues. I'll let an expert do his job and get paid for his expertise.
 
I'm sure others that have done in house Stainless heat treating with have more info for you.

I myself don't think the relatively small cost is a burden for sending The right stainless steel out for HT.
It work's out to about $10-$15 a piece. I can give you a true cost on Monday.
My last bill from Paul Bos HT of Buck knives was at the shop when I left last evening.

This is easy to built in to the cost for a customer and as Remy just mentioned, Knowing that you have a professional do his job.

The steels I would recommend are 440C, CPM-154. go to http://www.nsm-ny.com/?page_id=691

You can read some on these and others that you may like?

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
Robert i got a kiln from boss was not bad on price,want to say around 400.00 and this is a hobby for me.
cant tell you how nice it is not to have to send out. But i have the time i can see if you need to devote your time to making,bookwork, shop counter and other things maybe not.

actually heat treating is pretty decent there's enough info for the steels out there i have had no trouble with the stainless,d-2,damascus
or any of the others yet, and tracy has the heat treat info from texas knifemakers right on his sight.
 
Any of the mentioned steels can be treated in a small shop, if you have a kiln with good temp control for the long soak times that are required, 30-60 minutes are not uncommon. I use alot of 440C and CPM154CM.
Dale
 
All you need is a kiln and a little space on the kitchen counter beside the coffee pot.

Don't set yours up this way! See followup explanation here. (in reply number 13)

kiln-734.jpg


... and a very understanding wife. :eek:

Rob!
 
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All you need is a kiln and a little space on the kitchen counter beside the coffee pot.

kiln-734.jpg


... and a very understanding wife. :eek:

Rob!

That last part may be difficult for some of us married men! :no: LOL!
My sweet wife rocks her head like this for a no no!

And that's OK! I wouldn't want her in the middle of my shop when I am moving from machine to machine with sharp pointy things!

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
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I can see my wife when I tell her I'm putting my kiln in the kitchen....not. But I agree with Laurance...I dont want her stuff in my way out in the shop.
 
I used to get those looks, just using the kitchen oven to temper in. Don't do that anymore. Hey Rob, what if you drop one of those 1900 degree envelopes on the vinyl floor? I would be in the Dog House for sure.
Dale
 
If you send out 15 knives a year, one at a time, it's going to cost you around $25 a knife for shipping both ways and heat&cryo. In fact if you can get a single knife done for $25, you are doing good. 15x$25= $375
It's going to take 2 to 4 years to pay back your oven which isn't too long but that really isn't the best part of having your own oven.

By far, the biggest upside to having your own oven is your production will at least double.

You can start and finish a knife in a weekend. You just can't get that done sending steel out.
If you can afford an oven, get it and you will make a lot more knives and if you sell even a few of those, the payback time on the oven shortens up quite a bit.

You can follow the published heat treat recipes and your hardness will be with in 1point RC almost assuredly but you eventually will want a hardness tester. Every knife you send out for professional heat treat is tested for proper hardness multiple times for a reason. Occasionally things don't work they like are supposed to. Having a hardness tester will allow you to better follow the process and dial in heat treatment process to your shop better.
 
Another thing to consider when it comes to getting a programable kiln is that there is no such thing as having too much temperature control for heat treating. Even if you are thinking about getting a kiln to heat treat stainless steel you will probably find uses for it with carbon steels.

Doug
 
Here are the numbers right off my invoice from my Last batch of knives I sent to.
Paul Bos Heat Treatment
in Idaho..
Total of 26 blades of 6" to 11" in length.
The fast math is a total of $164.70 Total return with $25.00 to ship it there is $187.70 divided by 26 =
$7.29 Per blade

And the more you send the better. I don't think it has ever cost me more that $10.00 a blade for everything.
This is very cost effective.
The late Bob Loveless sent his blades to bos and showed myself and others the cost savings and the Quality of work.

Lots of knife makers get a oven, I still haven't seen the need.
Cheers!

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com/
 
I used to get those looks, just using the kitchen oven to temper in. Don't do that anymore. Hey Rob, what if you drop one of those 1900 degree envelopes on the vinyl floor? I would be in the Dog House for sure.
Dale

Just for the record, that is not my normal heat treat setup. :58: :biggrin:

I run a bank of kilns in the shop. Those pictures are from testing the Prototype of EvenHeat's 120V kiln. You can see there are temperature probes and guages placed around it to monitor temperature in places like around the cupboards. It did fine, but that was just for testing. Please follow guidelines for clearances that come with your kiln.

Sure is a great oven though. It put's precise DIY heat treat within reach for those who may not have access to 220V. This one has the setpro controller, which works fine and reminds me why the Rampmaster III is worth the extra $85 or so. SO much nicer..... :3:

Rob!
 
I just treated 12 Elmax blades today and have another 12 to do tomorrow. No problems at all. The quench plates from Boss are the bomb.
 
I just treated 12 Elmax blades today and have another 12 to do tomorrow. No problems at all. The quench plates from Boss are the bomb.

BossDog is selling quench plates???? Can you send me the link? I was just on the site yesterday seeing what was new, but I didn't see any quench plates!
What is the HT for the Elmax steel? The temps and soak time and does it require Cryo? Thanks, Rex
 
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Here is the link to the plates:

http://www.usaknifemaker.com/heat-treat-ovens-and-accessories-heat-treat-accessories-c-57_115.html

Here is what was made from the Elmax (the bottom one)

63517961.jpg



And for treating I foil wrap the blades (the foil is on the same page as the plates), put them in a cold oven, ramp straight up to 2000, soak for 30, plate quench, cryo over night, 2 x 2 hour tempers at 390.

The nice thing about having a 120v Even heat kiln, is I can do away with the ramping to 1200 and holding and then ramping to 1560 and holding. The thing heats up so slowly that by the time it gets through the 1200's and 1500's the proper amount of wait time has elapsed anyway. The knife shown is sitting right at 59-60 RC
 
Thanks for the info! The main thing holding me back from the Hi Tech stainless steels out there is the cost of a Dewar and the fact that as soon as you buy liquid nitrogen, it's evaporating. Not that it's all that expensive, the time to get to a supplier that will fill a tank around here has been hard to find, at least one close enough to get to at lunch. I really need to add a stainless steel to my offerings, but until I'm ready to eat the costs of LN and a container, I'll be holding off. So far I haven't had a customer request stainless, even in the few Santoku's I've made, I just explained to them that it isn't dishwasher safe/hand wash only! And to keep a thin layer of veg oil on it, so far I've had no complaints, and making them out of W-2 they are scary sharp! Thanks again for the info, I'll be saving this for when I do take the plunge. I still may try some out and send it off for HT, I don't see anything wrong with doing that on a few blades, just not all of them! I like to control every aspect of the process, so if anything goes wrong. I know who to blame! Thanks again, REX
 
No worries man. You can do stainless without cryo, just depends what you want out of a knife. And kitchen knives get mineral oil, not veggie oil. Veggie oil will go rancid after time whereas mineral oil will not. I use mineral oil on all my knives, even my daily carry zero tolerance. Mineral oil is also edible, so if you use your daily carry to cut up your apple, you don't have to worry about ingesting petro-chemicals from lubes, or rancid veggie oil.
 
As someone who mostly forges, I really like having a kiln. I use the kiln to normalize, stress relieve, harden and temper and am confident in the final product. A blacksmith once traded me a some really nice dies for my power hammer for me heat treating two 25 pound power hammer dies of h13. Completed the task with my little 120 volt Evenheat from boss.
 
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