Why so Many Hidden Tangs

Dwane Oliver

Well-Known Member
I've been making knives for about 8 years , and still consider myself a newbie.
I look around the net and see so many hidden tangs , and ask why.....

I'm , myself , am not a fan of the hidden tang. WHY you may ask...
Well , IMHO , they cant be as strong as a full tang. I can see some , like the take down models some guys make , being close.
In my past experiences , a properly tapered and lightened full tang , can balance at the index finger just as well.
AND
Myself dont mind using the extra material to create, IMHO, a stronger handle.

I also believe that a knife should be used as such , not a prybar or an axe.
BUT
If ones life depended on it, I feel alot better knowing that the handle will not break off during hard use.
Now that you'all know how I feel about the subject , I would like to know what you'all think about the subject.
AND
Why so Many Hidden Tangs ?

Dwane
 
YEAH! What do ya'll have to hide?:9::3:

My tang !

The hidden tang may/probably be a remnant of long ago days when steel was scarce. In days gone by, your local knifemaker was probably also your local blacksmith who would reuse or combine whatever steel was available with conservancy in mind. If you forge, hidden tangs are a way to show your skill in design and execution. There's no reason a hidden tang should be weaker than a full tang if done properly. I'd be suspect of the actual handle material in both designs weakening to heavy lateral stresses. Also, hidden tangs give you handle design choices you won't get with the other. just a couple pennies worth.

Rudy
 
My tang !

The hidden tang may/probably be a remnant of long ago days when steel was scarce. In days gone by, your local knifemaker was probably also your local blacksmith who would reuse or combine whatever steel was available with conservancy in mind. If you forge, hidden tangs are a way to show your skill in design and execution. There's no reason a hidden tang should be weaker than a full tang if done properly. I'd be suspect of the actual handle material in both designs weakening to heavy lateral stresses. Also, hidden tangs give you handle design choices you won't get with the other. just a couple pennies worth.

Rudy

I know Rudy, I was just joshing.
 
A big reason for me is to get the full use of handle material such as stag, ivory tips or wood blocks. But here's a topic for discussion, IMHO, the fit of the guard and pommel is much more difficult than clamping scales on a full tang .

In my growth as a maker I consider the hidden tang at the top of the fixed blade list, but I do love all knives. Ask a folder maker about slippies and I think you'll get a similar reply.
 
There are some advantages to a hidden tang. There are easier to put guards one, for one. Pommels might be easier too. I think that the ABS also favors stick tangs of some sort for knives submitted for judging so I think that might direct makers away from full tangs. Then I have read posts where makers consider them to be easier to make than full tang knives or maybe they just likes the looks.

Doug
 
I've had several ABS journeymen tell me that there is no problem with submitting full tang knives WITH BOLSTERS for judging. Plain three piece knives will have problems though.

Personally, I like to make hidden tang knives because the guard fitting is still a challenge for me and the guard/ferrule, spacer, etc. design options are more interesting to me. However I mostly make full tang knives because I mostly make kitchen knives from thin stock and fitting a guard with stock so thin that it's hard find a file thinner than the slot is a challenge.
 
All other variables being equal, full tang knives are stronger than hidden tang knives.
 
I have tested none, nor have I tested whether a piece of steel is stronger than a piece of scale material of same dimension. To veer back to the original question: why so many hidden tang knives. One reason is that there are more aesthetically motivated design possibilities with hidden tang knives than there are with full tang knives. I don't think people make hidden tang knives because they are inherently as strong or stronger than full tang knives.

Not trying to start a fight here, I just wanna know how many hidden tang knives you have tested to destruction and what did it take to do so?
 
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Just for the record, I have never tested my theory of which one is stronger. But logical thinking says the one with more steel is going to be stronger.
If someone has some test results on this subject , I would love to see them.

YEAH! What do ya'll have to hide?:9::3:
Ornery fella.... :biggrin:

My tang !

The hidden tang may/probably be a remnant of long ago days when steel was scarce. In days gone by, your local knifemaker was probably also your local blacksmith who would reuse or combine whatever steel was available with conservancy in mind. If you forge, hidden tangs are a way to show your skill in design and execution. There's no reason a hidden tang should be weaker than a full tang if done properly. I'd be suspect of the actual handle material in both designs weakening to heavy lateral stresses. Also, hidden tangs give you handle design choices you won't get with the other. just a couple pennies worth.

Rudy
Thanks Rudy , but please explain your statments in red.
I do forging ...when forging is nessesary , and I dont think my designs or executions are lacking. Blade shapes , and handle shapes for that matter, can be achieved whether your forging or not.
Show me a handle design that can not be achieved with a full tang please.


A big reason for me is to get the full use of handle material such as stag, ivory tips or wood blocks. But here's a topic for discussion, IMHO, the fit of the guard and pommel is much more difficult than clamping scales on a full tang .

In my growth as a maker I consider the hidden tang at the top of the fixed blade list, but I do love all knives. Ask a folder maker about slippies and I think you'll get a similar reply.

Thanks Steven , I would have to agree on this one. They are a PITA and one reason, not the main reason , I dont like them.
If I had a mill , I would do more hidden tang knives. I just cant understand putting more time into a weaker structure, to achieve the same result.

There are some advantages to a hidden tang. There are easier to put guards one, for one. Pommels might be easier too. I think that the ABS also favors stick tangs of some sort for knives submitted for judging so I think that might direct makers away from full tangs. Then I have read posts where makers consider them to be easier to make than full tang knives or maybe they just likes the looks.

Doug
Thanks Doug , are you saying that hidden tang knives are easier to make ?

I've had several ABS journeymen tell me that there is no problem with submitting full tang knives WITH BOLSTERS for judging. Plain three piece knives will have problems though.

Personally, I like to make hidden tang knives because the guard fitting is still a challenge for me and the guard/ferrule, spacer, etc. design options are more interesting to me. However I mostly make full tang knives because I mostly make kitchen knives from thin stock and fitting a guard with stock so thin that it's hard find a file thinner than the slot is a challenge.

Thanks for the reply Dan , :biggrin:

I like doing all of them! Hidden tand,full tang,slipjoints,liner locks,all of them!

If I was as good as you are I would enjoy making all of them too :3:

Good discussion fellas , keep em coming.
Dwane

Woops forgot to post this link to an article written by Sean OHare I found.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Custom-Knife-Design---Full-Versus-Hidden-Tang&id=6519720
 
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One factor that weakens most of the hidden tang knives I have seen are the sharp angled cuts that are made to fit the bolster, guard or some other knife part to the blade itself. Lots of talk about stress risers but in the case of hidden tang knife construction, stress risers are often part of the design.

I remain confident that "studies show" that hidden tang knives are stronger than full tang knives and there is some hidden tang sage that can explain it all to us.

Here's a "test":

orig.jpg


orig.jpg
 
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of course, it could also be argued that widely available full tang knives were popularized during the industrial revolution by the makers in Sheffield and other places to make manufacture of knives easier. To the best of my knowledge, almost all of the legendary Japanese swords were "hidden" tang and handle was held on with a bamboo pin. They had very wide hidden tangs, but so do a lot of hidden tang knives today. Also almost ALL of the European swords that I have seen are hidden tang and in the case of swords, unlike everyday use knives, the cost of thee steel was not an issue with most because they sword was ridiculously expensive anyway. A LOT of full tang knives today are not in fact, "full" tang, but have had their tangs heavily drilled or skeletonized. As far as strength, remember that an ABS JS performance test knife can be a full tang blade, the the damascus MS test knife must be hidden tang and pass the same performance test.
 
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One factor that weakens most of the hidden tang knives I have seen are the sharp angled cuts that are made to fit the bolster, guard or some other knife part to the blade itself. Lots of talk about stress risers but in the case of hidden tang knife construction, stress risers are often part of the design.

I remain confident that "studies show" that hidden tang knives are stronger than full tang knives and there is some hidden tang sage that can explain it all to us.

This dosn't make sence.

of course, it could also be argued that widely available full tang knives were popularized during the industrial revolution by the makers in Sheffield and other places to make manufacture of knives easier. To the best of my knowledge, almost all of the legendary Japanese swords were "hidden" tang and handle was held on with a bamboo pin. They had very wide hidden tangs, but so do a lot of hidden tang knives today. Also almost ALL of the European swords that I have seen are hidden tang and in the case of swords, unlike everyday use knives, the cost of thee steel was not an issue with most because they sword was ridiculously expensive anyway. A LOT of full tang knives today are not in fact, "full" tang, but have had their tangs heavily drilled or skeletonized. As far as strength, remember that an ABS JS performance test knife can be a full tang blade, the the damascus MS test knife must be hidden tang and pass the same performance test.

Thanks for your reply ....jmforge.
I did ALOT of thinking on this subject before I posted this question. I really do like to try and find the answer on my own.
I was just waiting for someone to bring up the MS test, as it kept coming to mind when I would debate the strength aspect of it all. I have looked around the web quite a bit and only found a few pics or videos of the creation of MS test knives. They have a very large hidden tang , like many European swords and Japanese swords do.
You guys are begining to change my outlook about the strength aspect.
BUT that was not the question here.

This is shaping up to be a very entertaining Thread!
I'm going to mix a drink and sit back and watch! :biggrin:

Laurence

www.westsidesharpening.com/
www.rhinoknives.com/

I was hoping it would not be entertaining , but educational, sorry. I am not trying to create a heated debate on this subject.
ONLY
To find out " Why so many hidden tangs"

OK , let just say , for the sake of "I dont want to argue the strength aspect anymore" , that they are the same strength.
Hidden tangs are obiously not easier to make, IMHO , and as Steven posted as well.
I've done some more searching and have found at least one handle design that would be tough to do with a full tang. The butt end of the handle was bigger than the ricaso , where the guard was at. A D guard style of a handle would be a challenge as well , but doable I think.

...............

Carry on , good discussion here I think.

Thanks again to everyone that has posted so far.

Dwane
 
"I remain confident that "studies show" that hidden tang knives are stronger than full tang knives and there is some hidden tang sage that can explain it all to us."

In light of the statement you made prior to this, I must ask.....What?
 
There are makers that work wonders with full tang knives, there is no doubt. But imho, hidden tang knives present a greater challenge as well as more options in the finished product.

When I take a prized piece of horn or stabilized burl from the shelf, looking to see if it works with a new damascus bowie I'm working on, the thought of cutting it up, not using it in its natural state just doesn't come to mind . Why cut up perfection?
 
lol

The two word phrase: "Studies show" is often followed by some of the most counterintuitive nonsense known to man. Studies will show that according to aerodynamic principles, a bee can't fly.

"I remain confident that "studies show" that hidden tang knives are stronger than full tang knives and there is some hidden tang sage that can explain it all to us."

In light of the statement you made prior to this, I must ask.....What?
 
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Actually, I seem to see far more full tang knives being made, and I'm assuming that is because they are easier to make, especially via stock removal.
I'll start off saying that there's no right or wrong here, it's like asking what's the 'best' blade steel/design, handle material, etc., etc.
As far as strength goes, a FULL tang (i.e. not skelotonized, drilled out, etc) will be stronger due to the amount of steel. However, when you are trying to lighten up the handle and you remove a bunch of metal to do so, you are losing strength. For instance, if a skelotonized handle area has two 1/8" sides coming off the blade to make the handle area, it would be relatively close to the same strength as one 1/4" piece coming through the middle. Same thing if you make swiss cheese out of the handle area. I think the exception to this might be a full, but tapered tand. The majority of the metal is still at the guard area where it's needed.
Hidden tang handles protect the tang better from corrosion.
It's easier to put the balance further onto the blade with a hidden tang.
Hidden tang knives are a PITA.
You can get make amterials go farther. I have a sheet of steel that I'm having GLWJ cut up for me that I will get 4-6 hidden tangs out of as opposed to 3-4 if they were full tang.
Most of the time I prefer hidden tang knives, primarily because I like they way they balance better.
However, each and every design element, material choice, etc, like ALL things related to knife making, has it's advantages and disadvantages and it all depends on what compromises you (or your customer) want to make to get to the end result.
 
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