The new guy has a question

Rich

Active Member
I was thinking...what is stronger, a blade made from flat stock or a damascus blade made from the same material? Why? If they were made and hardened and tempered the same which would be a better blade? Just a thought. It may change my plan for blade making.
 
I was thinking...what is stronger, a blade made from flat stock or a damascus blade made from the same material? Why? If they were made and hardened and tempered the same which would be a better blade? Just a thought. It may change my plan for blade making.

All things being the same; there is no difference between a forged blade and a stock removal blade. Its all in the heat treatment.

Strong is not necessarily a relative term when discussing knife blades. Its more a matter of how hard, ductile and abrasive resistant a blade is that would influence steel choice. Stain resistance and a couple others comes into play but mainly its the first three.
Fred
 
I mean, as an example, a knife made of 1085 by stock removal and heat treated and 1085 and made into damascus and heat treated. Would there be a great difference besides looks?
 
Rich, 'damascus' generally refers to different steels - with different qualities - welded together in layers - originally to share beneficial qualities of each - and as a cool benefit, the layers etch at different rates showing interesting patterns.

The question doesn't fit with different steels.

Rob!
 
So even if the metal is folded and hammer welded it will not be any stronger. Thank you both for clarifying that for me.
 
So even if the metal is folded and hammer welded it will not be any stronger. Thank you both for clarifying that for me.
If not done properly the welding process will introduce slag inclusions and areas that don't weld, so the damascus is much more subject to error during production of the material itself. Aside from that, the question depends more on the specific alloys involved than anything else.
 
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Also remember that the carbon content of the steel will even out. What that means is that if you forge weld some 1050 and 1084 in equal amounts what you will end up with is something like 1065 with bands containing different manganese levels. The manganese diffuses very slowly as compared to carbon.

Doug
 
I was thinking...what is stronger, a blade made from flat stock or a damascus blade made from the same material? Why? If they were made and hardened and tempered the same which would be a better blade? Just a thought. It may change my plan for blade making.

Judging by the replies, the overall consensus seems to favor starting with flat stock of the appropriate thickness. I tend to agree.

It really depends upon your objectives when making the knife.

Heat treatment is the most important factor in a blade, and the best way to nail the heat treatment is to know the steel you're working with.

With modern steels, layering/welding the same steel upon itself would provide very little, if any, benefit. It won't make it any "stronger".
But, as mentioned, it can certainly introduce potential problems. Something else to keep in mind is potential carbon loss with repeated forging.

If aesthetics ("looks") are of primary importance in your blade, then I can see where "Damascus steel" would appeal to you.
We have many here who produce truly beautiful pieces of pattern-welded steel.
Besides the obvious labor involved, the different components must be able to take a good weld, and you'll have to come up with a good recipe for the heat treatment, since you're creating a new animal out of two different types of steel.
Depending upon the types of steel used, that can range from simple to next to impossible.

So you have to decide the goal of your blade, then determine how to achieve it.
If your primary goal is to retain the original known properties of the steel (strength, edge retention, etc.), the best way to keep those properties is to work with a piece of known stock and follow the appropriate heat treatment.
 
I think that Rob has hit one it quite well. At best pattern welded blade can be no better (however that is determined and defined) the best steel used and there is a great potential for it being worse, or even much worse. There is no case where it turnes out that a steel billet that is better than the sum of it's parts. I am far less enamoured with pattern welding than I was when I first started studying knife making and there is a chance that the only pattern welded blade that I ever make will be for my Master's Stamp test and there is a good chance that I'll never test for it. That does not mean that I don't think that it's a worthwhile goal; it only means that I may never feel that learning to make damascus or earning my Master's Stamp are worthwhile to me.

Doug
 
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I did some extensive testing on that very subject . I made several different blades just to break them . one or two were damascus made from 1095 and 15n20 the others were 1095 . Now remember these are preliminary results . After blades were hardened and Ht 'd I took a hammer and nailed the blades in a tree
I then proceeded to bend them back and forth enumerous times . The damascus steel was much harder to break that way . I kind of compare them to a piece of plywood versus regular wood .Ever try to break plywood ! After so many bends the mono steel would break but, the damascus would delminate and took longer to break . Of course we are talking lateral strength . You can try it yourself. sometimes I could hardly break the damascus . just a thought
and some real testing ..... regards ..bubba
 
It would have been interesting if you could have included a blade in the study that was forged from 15N20 to see what the effect of the nickel alloy had. I don't think that your analogy comparing the pattern welded steel with plywood is very good. The strength of plywood has to do with the fiber strands being layed down at right angles to each other in alternating layers. There is no such layering of fibers in pattern welded steel.

Doug
 
You are correct in that Plywood gets some of its strength from fiber strand but also gets bending strength from lamination .the Damascus and plywood are both laminated .As far as the 15n20 we were speaking of damascus I think. .You can do the test yourself, I was a bit surprised how hard it is to bend and break damascus in real time tests. Of course you and I dont agree on a lot of things , its not a big deal. I did not test for hardness , edge holding , or cutting ability . The analogy was between regular wood and plywood and was used as reference only .I stand by my tests.
 
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I don't doubt you test results and I'm aware that the pattern welded steel is built up of laminations. My point is that your results may be from the layers of tougher nickel steel between the layers of plain steel and a solid blade of 15N20 might be tougher still. I know that finding 15N20 in thicker sections is difficult and might require that a billet be welded up from layers of it to do the test but it would be interesting to try it out. Actually if I was testing it I would use billets of the same dimentions and heat treatment one of 15N20, one of 1095, or another plain steel, and billet made up of both steels forge welded together. If one was feeling froggy the test could be expanded by varying the number of layers in the forge welded billets. No biggie; just an idea.

Doug
 
Rich,

A few questions:

What type of blade are you wanting to make?
What will be the primary purpose or use of the blade?
What tools and abilities do you have at your disposal? (Forging or stock removal?)
What are your current abilities concerning HT?

There are so many variables with different steels and their respective applications, but starting with this will provide some insight and perhaps allow others to chime in on some suggestions.

Truthfully, there is no "right way/wrong way" on most of this stuff.
We all have different ways of doing things, and the reason for that is directly related to the four questions above. But there are usually "better" ways to obtain certain objectives. Knowing your objective will show you what you need to do.
 
I don't doubt you test results and I'm aware that the pattern welded steel is built up of laminations. My point is that your results may be from the layers of tougher nickel steel between the layers of plain steel and a solid blade of 15N20 might be tougher still. I know that finding 15N20 in thicker sections is difficult and might require that a billet be welded up from layers of it to do the test but it would be interesting to try it out. Actually if I was testing it I would use billets of the same dimentions and heat treatment one of 15N20, one of 1095, or another plain steel, and billet made up of both steels forge welded together. If one was feeling froggy the test could be expanded by varying the number of layers in the forge welded billets. No biggie; just an idea.

Doug

That is a good idea . the damascus I used was 1095 and 15n20 in thin strips , had maybe 400 layers .I like to test my steel more like a obsession for me . Sometimes its not neccesary . Its kind of a compulsion .( Crasy sword maker ) I have some cpm 3v that will be made into some sanmai
not sure how it will weld up but, if it does, may be some killer steel . I enjoy your posts and your easy to understand language . Makes it easier for new smiths to understand.Although I have been a rated japanese smith for almost 40 years , I can always learn something , we all can . Of the 5 great swordmaking schools (Gokaden) even though all the schools were excellent . Some of the japanese feudal smiths would have disagreements over method . sometimes they would go to war over a blade . That was pure hardheadedness. I make some of my own tamahagane from japanese black sand ore and missouri black hematite or sometimes lemonite, same as hematite but yellow . Makes some cool colored blades .
enjoy talking with you .... James ..... Bubba-san
 
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