Newbie HT dilemma

theWeatherman

Well-Known Member
So I have been stuck between a couple different options and I was hoping you guys could help me out with your experiences and know how. This might be the wrong forum area but I figured I am a newbie and this is a good newbie question.

I could:
1) Buy a small Kiln for example http://www.sugarcreekind.com/kilns-knife-kilns-c-273_312.html
2) Use a oxy/acetylene torch or oxy/propane torch
3) Send out to HT

I would like to do it as cheap as possible and still make knives. So if I continue to send out for HT then I just add to the total and I will pass the total price for a kiln, if its a sugar creek kiln or an evenheat oven. ~$20 a knife for HT, so that would lead between 30-60 knives depending on the size of the knife and where you do it.

I would really like to do my own HT so I am stuck between #1 and #2. After doing the research for torch parts and ovens it really comes out on a wash. I would consider making a coffee-can forge and what not but my landlord doesn't want that type of stuff laying around, unless you guys have good idea on how to make it portable and easy to move and store. So I am back to a torch or a kiln, which will cool off and be easy to move and store.

What can you guys tell me about cheap HT ovens and using torches. I know lots of people don't like torches but I really like what they can do, looking at Brian Goode knives. Ideas, suggestions, hints?

I guess I came across another idea of using an older top loading kiln to HT knives but I don't understand how people are hanging knives or not burning themselves when they are taking the knives out to quench.
 
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I have a Evenheat oven and love it, not cheap. I have a friend that has a Sugarcreek oven with no digital controller and he loves it. The difference is he does only carbon steel with the Sugarcreek, and I do stainless and other air hardening steels that require long soaks and precise temp control, so it would depend on what types of steel you want to work with. I used a oxy- acty torch for my first attempt at heat treating 10xx steel, turned out ok. I would recommend an oven, with a controller, if you can afford one, because as you get into knifemaking more, you may want to expand your steel use to stainless and other air hardening steels. If you only want to use simple carbon steels, then you can do fine without the costly option of a controler. And sending out is a good option, but I like doing my own HT. One other recommendation, if you do buy an oven, get one that will allow you to do longer blades than you think you will ever do, I bought the smallest Evenheat that I could, 13.5 inch model, now I find it is to small for some knives that i want to make in the near future.
Hope this helps.
 
JDW, yeah that helps. It wasn't really what I was hoping for but I have the feeling that I will have to save for an oven.

After searching frantically and trying to find more info on the forges, because I like working with O-1, the forge is out.
 
Either save for a new one or hope and wish with my fingers crossed for something to come along that is used.
 
Think safety first...then what your landlord will allow. As a landlord I'd be pretty apprehensive about fire causing activities on my property. With that said....now the fun stuff.

The heat treat oven will give you the most accuracy in your HT, but there's long wait times as in baby sitting the thing, preheats, ramps and the thing doesn't cool instantly. I keep mine isolated from flamables on a stainless cart. The thing is real heavy so have good plan for 'storage'.(landlord)

I use my oxy/ac torch on everything but making knives. Unless you've been around one for a long time...it can be an accident waiting to happen. Think burns, leaks, flameouts and a one foot flame looking for something to eat.

Your best bet starting out would be a small propane HT forge. It's pretty much like running a grill. It stores easily (when cool) and is less likely to upset your landlord since the flame stays pretty much contained. If you're working with 10X steels, HT takes just a matter of minutes. I've made several of these little guys that run on small bottles and a BurnsOmatic plumbing tip, just to give you an idea.

View attachment 28850View attachment 28851

Stay safe,
Rudy
 
I think I am just ending up in the corner were I have no choice but to send out for HT. I like working with the O-1 steel and the propane forge just doesn't work for O-1. I might have to go towards 1095 maybe.

Rudy, do you have any good plans for that picture you attached?
 
Why wouldn't a forge work for O1 ?
I forge and heat treat O-1 in my forge and have been for years. O-1 was/is a popular forge steel. As far as plans, simple, I made them to fit inside a flat rate box for shipping. 6' diameter tube....11 1/2" long. Weld four 3/8-16 nuts to tube for legs. Drill a 1" hole in tube near mid point and weld in a 3/4 x 3" pipe nipple on a slight angle towards the back of forge. Weld 14 guage cap on end and all you need to do is line it and paint it. The legs are 3/8-16 threaded rod. It's mainly to HT the blade on larger knives, on smaller knives you can HT the whole thing but really don't need to. I never drew out plans but I suppose I could if you need them. PM me.

View attachment 28853

Rudy
 
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From the different makers that I have been talking to they say that a forge doesn't keep the temp steady enough to HT O-1.

I want to get the forge to 1500F, have the knife put in and soak for the specified time, take out and quench in Peanut oil.

Then Temper.......

PM Sent
 
Why wouldn't a forge work for O1 ?
I forge and heat treat O-1 in my forge and have been for years. O-1 was/is a popular forge steel. As far as plans, simple, I made them to fit inside a flat rate box for shipping. 6' diameter tube....11 1/2" long. Weld four 3/8-16 nuts to tube for legs. Drill a 1" hole in tube near mid point and weld in a 3/4 x 3" pipe nipple on a slight angle towards the back of forge. Weld 14 guage cap on end and all you need to do is line it and paint it. The legs are 3/8-16 threaded rod. It's mainly to HT the blade on larger knives, on smaller knives you can HT the whole thing but really don't need to. I never drew out plans but I suppose I could if you need them. PM me.

View attachment 28853

Rudy

I would appreciate you posting more specific plans! Type of tube, nipple, liner. It looks just like what I need for 1084.

Thanks,
Chad
 
My reccomendation would be to send out your first few. This will allow you to test and get a feel for what you are wanting in a knife. Once you have a few done, sell them to finance your HT set up. Although i use a forge, I would prefer a HT oven and hope to get one in the coming year. I get good results with my forge, but would like the dead on repeatability of a HT oven. If you are going to send your blades out, Id highly reccomend Brad at Peters HT they do great work, and wont cost you an arm or a leg!

God Bless
Mike
 
From the concencus of those who have heat treated their blades O1 is not the best to try to heat treat in an unregulated gas forge. You can produce a servicable knife in one but to get the best performance out of the blade you will need a regulated kiln or a molten salt tank. The choice of 1095 is also problematic. Not all 1095 is created equal. The make up of some melts can make it a difficlt proposition. If you want to try 1095 the only place that I would get it is from The New Jersey Steel Baron. Aldo Bruno, the owner, had a melt of 1095 made specifically with the need of the knife making in mind. For ease of treating with a more basic (primative) heat source would be one of the other 10XX steels with at least 50 points of carbon minimum, and better yet, over 60 points of carbon.

If you are going to be doing only stock removal and will be sending your blades out for heat treating you might want to take a look at some of the older stainless steels like 440C or 154CM. They are good stainless steels and just about any professional heat treater out there will know how to process it. Not all heat treaters are set up to handle non-air quenching steels. That said, many of us do feel that stainless steels have their limits as a knife making material and that there is nothing wrong with using plain carbon, spring, and non-air quenching tool steels. We may consider it preferable. They're also cheaper steels to mess up while you are learning. Just be aware that it might be a little harder to find a service that can or will do the job for you.

Doug
 
Forge plans

Well here's what I came up with, it took longer to draw & post this than to actually make it.:glare: Between this and the actual pic, there shouldn't be any confusion. And no....I'm not an architect or engineer, the pics prove it.

View attachment 28955View attachment 28956

*Cut your tube to 12" max.
These torches only throw out so much heat...you might as well use all you can.
*Lay the tube along side of a board on your bench and draw a line along the board on the tube.
*measure over 2 1/2" from that line at each end and make another line.
*Along those two lines from each end measure in 1 3/4".
Viola...you have your spacing for the nuts. weld them on.
*Cut and weld on your end cap and grind flush.
*Insert your threaded rod (already cut). Your forge body is now oriented. Marvel at your labors.
*Measure halfway across the forge near the top and mark. Pick a spot at that mark that's higher than the middle but lower than the top of the forge.
*Drill a 1" hole (unibit) in tube using your mark as the backside of the hole. Weld in your 3/4"x 3" black pipe nipple kicking it slightly towards the back inside of the forge and ONLY 3/4" inside the tube. (Think Lowes, Home Depot, Hardware store, Plumbing supply house)
*Line tube with 1" ceramic blanket (back too). Ceramic blanket and mortar are available from Wayne Coe.
*Coat the inside with any high temp mortar and Plistix making sure you cone the mortar around your burn hole. and wait a couple days till dry.
*Insert torch into burn tube but not into the forge....it will melt. Turn little round knob at propane tank a half turn and light er up with a long appropiate burning object.
*Let it run for a couple minutes on low to get the moisture out of the forge....then crank it. Each forge will act differently so you may have to cut back on the gas and/or move your torch tip in or out. You'll know you hit it right when the back of the forge looks bright orange/yellow and it makes a sweet low roaring sound.

The tube I use is large diameter sprinkler pipe cause it's free. Well casing works but it's thick.

The torch set up can be bought anywhere they sell plumbing supplies. If the tip fits tight in the burn tube...give a couple twirls on the grinder till it fits loosely (they expand when hot).

That's just about all I can think of....like I said, I could have made one in the time it took to do this. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Hope this helps .

Rudy
 
I am very interested in making a forge at one point and trying to make it Temp controlled. Having said that I was given the opportunity yesterday from a local maker out her in Colorado and he showed me his enormous shop and taught me how to HT with a Oxy/Act torch. It was very fun. I haven't cleaned up the knife yet to see how it looks but I think it went well.

Thanks again for all your input!!!!
 
I have seen people austinize their blades with a rosebud tip on an acetyline torch but I would use a simpler steel for it. Something like 1060, 1075/1080, or 1084 or even some W1 or W2.

Doug
 
If you are using O1 then you still should be able to get a usable knife out of it but I may lack the flexability that you would be able to get from it if you had a regulated heat treating oven.

Doug
 
If you are using O1 then you still should be able to get a usable knife out of it but I may lack the flexability that you would be able to get from it if you had a regulated heat treating oven.

Doug

Why do you say "lack of flexibility" Just because I am stuck with the high carbon steel?
 
First of all, you are not stuck with hight carbon. W1 and W2 have, or can have, as much or possibly more carbon in them and are pretty easy to heat treat from all that I've read about them. The problem comes from the other elements, probably the tungsten, which would lead me to think that it involves the formation of large carbides which will embrittle the steel some. I think that Ray uses O1 more and uses a more complex heat treating method with a regulated kiln. Hopefully he will chime in with a more detailed answere.

Doug
 
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