Ht'ing W-2 and Keeping the hamon off the EDGE!!!

McClellan Made Blades

Well-Known Member
Hey Dawgs,
Got a quick question on HT'ing W-2, specifically- keeping the hamon OFF the edge, the one I'm working on right now I have Ht'd twice, the first time it was all the way down on the edge, so I changed up the way I did my HT, went a little cooler with a shorter soak, (the 1st time was at 1460 w/15 minute soak, 2nd was at 1425 with a 7 minute soak) th esecond time the hamon is half way up the blade and looks gorgeous for about half the blades length, (my son said it looked like ocean waves! Until it dropped back down along the edge.)

I've read somewhere someone saying something about the temp to keep the hamon off the edge, I don't recall where or what steel they were refering to because with 1084 I never had that problem. While I'm asking, with W-2 is there a way to keep the hamon flowing with the clay? Or is it better to clay up higher? So far with this blade I've had 2 hamons with both Ht's, looks kinda cool but not what I had in mind, I have spent about 20 hours sanding and polishing this blade trying to dial it in, it's already sharp from all of that! It gave me a little nick last night, the edge is hard, I checked it with new file and wrapped the handle and chopped a 2x4, some seasoned Cherry, and gave a couple of whacks on a log of Moc Orange (Osage Orange) no damage, I didn't sharpen it completely, I just set the edge to make sure I got it hard enough, all th etesting was done after one temper cycle, I plan on doing another one tonight. Thanks For all of yall's help, Rex
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Is it a fixed- blade and are you heating up the tang too? What kind of grind, edge-thickness, etc? What are you quenching in? Some pics would be great --
 
Hey Thanks guys,
I was beginning to think I had upset someone...never know these days.

Anyway, to answer your questions, the grind is flat, it is a hidden tang, edge thickness is about .02 where I take all my blades to pre-heat treat thickness. Quench was Mcmaster Carr 11 second oil, heated to about 100 to120 degrees, the clay is applied in even coats about an 1/8 to maybe a smidge thicker at the spine, with the lines going down toward the edge much thinner. Oh yea, I have a kiln that I do my HT in so the tang gets heated to a degree, I have always coated my tangs as well, much thicker than I do the blade, hoping to keep it from getting as hard as the blade. I can see why W-2 is so popular the part of the hamon that turned out about the 2nd 3rd of the blade is friggin GORGEOUS!! But, it drops back down to the edge about half way up the blade, I'll be sure and get some pics tonight and post them, I originally posted this from work last week, figured I'd have more folks chimming in with the popularity of W-2 and all, it can be a PITA. But the edge is AMAZING!!! I have a log of Moc Orange (Osage Orange) that I use to test the edge on, this knife hasn't been fully sharpened, just trimmed down a bit, well that and lots of hand sanding working on the hamon, it was bitting deep into the log, never has any of my other blades tested so well on Moc Orange, I usually just give it a few whacks to test the edge for roll, I know this wood is extremely hard and can damage an otherwise good blade, BUT! It was bitting so deep, it totally freaked me out,
John Samford came over Sunday, and I was showing him how well it cut and also wanting to test the area of the blade where the hamon dropped to the edge to make sure it did harden, and it definitley did! Maybe I'm being too picky, I don't know, I do know what I like and I like my hamons to be in that 2nd 3rd of the blade or at least well above the edge. My biggest fear is if this knife were to go to someone who used it alot, and had to sharpen it often, over the years that they got past the hamon on the edge and into softer material. Not good! Aside from all the normal things that could go wrong, my fear is that one of my knives could fail on someone when they needed it the most, like everyone else I want to keep that from happening, Thanks guys, Rex
 
The smart guys will chime in and give you a real answer Rex, but my guess is your quenchant. I don't think 11 sec. McMaster Carr is fast enough to reach the full potential of your steel.
 
I agree that 11 second oil could be too slow. Also my results with w2 ht with a kiln and parks 50 is that when you go too low on the temps you run the risk the hamon dipping too low or below the edge. I typically harden at 1475 for hamnon and 1500 on w2/15n20 damascus. I was actually getting an unintended hamon on the damscus becuase the temp was too low to through harden the entire blade.
 
Well for the good news, I'm almost done with my vertical quench tank and I have 5 gallons of DT-48 from Maxim just waiting for it! I'm not a big fan of Parks, they're real buttholes! Just call them and try to buy ANYTHING from them! I'll be trying out the DT-48 very soon, I need to test my tank and once I'm positive it has no leaks I'll be filing her up!

Back to the McMaster Carr oil, I was under the impression that heating it up sped it up, that is the way I've always done my 1084 and 1095, and it works great for that. I know W-2 isn't the same as those, I also know it's very close to 1095 in chemistry, it is some wild stuff to work with, and man does it get sharp! Without even trying!

Ya know I probably should be happy with getting full hardness and not so anal about hamons, but I just LOVE puling a hamon out of a blade, it gives it so much distinction, or more so, character. I've yet to get 2 the same, even though I do my clay practically the same on every blade!

Thanks for chimming in guys! BTW, what temps do you all Ht W-2 at & soak time, and where did you get your W-2 from, mine came from Aldo, I believe it is .91C. There are some many different versions of W-2 from what I've learned, with some having Chrome in it. It maybe that I just have to keep testing it out until I get it figured out, darn it! I'll have to make more knives for that...but some guidance is always WELCOME!!!
Thanks Guys, Rex
 
Is it a fixed- blade and are you heating up the tang too? What kind of grind, edge-thickness, etc? What are you quenching in?Some picswould be great --

Ok Guys, A little late but finally, I got the pics taken and loaded, I took them at
arms distance and used the zoom to get closer, then I cropped them so you could see the hamon, at the bottom of the edge, and maybe the one at more toward the middle. Let me know what y'all think, I included shots of both sides, the lines do match, much better than I'm used to getting, I am happy with that! I'd be happier if it followed it all the way down the blade!!! It would have been phenomenal!!
Thanks so much, maybe with y'alls help I might be able to get it the way I want it. Rex
BTW I just checked the pics and when you click on them they blow way up, possibly too big, but on my monitor you can see a lot of detail, so maybe it will work better for most of you all


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Weird that it falls off towards the tip. Are you moving the blade from oven to quenchant fast enough? You've got about a second to move it between the two. I'm thinking the tip started to lose some heat before it got the quenchant. Also remember that if you're using cold tongs to get the blade out, that will start sucking the heat away pretty fast.
 
Mike,
I do get to it as fast as possible but I've never timed myself, once I open the door to the kiln, I get a grip on the tang and go straight to the quench, I was taught to aggitate it aggressively, so once in the quench I have to slow myself down so I don't get too excited and go side to side, but first I get it in the quench and then I aggitate it back and forth quickly with out splashing the oil all over the place. It may be a bit better once I get my vertical quench tank finished.

I know I've read somewhere, some mentioning something about the temps so the hamon doesn't fall to the edge, if this was 1084 or 1095, it wouldn't be a problem at all, but the hamon wouldn't be as active. I do believe figuring this out will be worthwhile, one thing I have noticed about this steel, good hamon or not, it gets super hard, and super sharp with hardly any effort!

With you mentioning that I believe I will anneal it and re-HT it one more time, this time using Maxim's DT-48, my new vertical quench tank should hold all 5 gallons, and I should be able to have enough in there to get it cooled down quick enough, after a few practice runs, that is. One of the things I advise newbie's on is when quenching a blade for the 1st time, is to do a few "cold" runs, to know how you're going to move, I figured that out after my very 1st blade. It's not normal to hold a piece of steel that's 1500 degree's! With this new set-up that I'm not accustomed to, I will have to do some dry runs to make sure I have everything in the right place and everything else out of the way.

Do you think annealing it is necessary? I've Ht'd it twice already, I did 3 thermal cycles before the 1st HT, any advice on the best temp? I'm not sure about the grain growth with HT'ing it so many times, annealing it should reduce the grain size if it has grown and if it hasn't it would'nt hurt. I think at this point this knife is going to be mine and once it's done, I'm gonna beat the H*LL out of it, test it out beyond stupidity, I may even break it to see what the grain looks like. Unless I get a wicked crazy mind blowing hamon, then breaking it would be difficult!
Thanks for the input, I know all this will pay off, and I do appreciate you guys helping me out, Thanks so much!!! Rex
 
Rex,

You need faster oil. Parks 50. I did a blade in ATF 2 weeks ago in Michigan(It was all I could get) I got a hamon at about a 1/2" up from the edge with "no clay". The w2 is a shallow hardening steel. This stuff more so.
 
You can also try brine if you dont have the correct oil. You will probably crack some blades but it can be done.
 
You can also try brine if you dont have the correct oil. You will probably crack some blades but it can be done.

Aldo my Brother from another Mother!!!,
How did you get a hamon without clay or some other insulating media? Edge quench? Haven't thought of that. Personally I would'nt try it with W-2, full hardness is way more important than a hamon, I can say all the right things about how a sharp tough blade and all about quality comes first, >BUT<! I love getting a hamon to come out on a blade, as long as I don't sacrifice any of the forementioned qualifications, I'll try until my tennis/golfers elbows start screaming....again!

I've got 5 gallons of the Maxim DT-48, it is fast and can be made faster by heating it up, according to Lee Neves at Maxim, I have many issues with Heat Bath, I've told the story many times, and don't want to go into it again, let's just say my big dumb country butt called them up and asked to order some. You know what happened! They didn't want my business then and now they will never get it.....OK never might be a long time, but as long as I can find something that will work I'll use it, besides Houghton makes a fast quench oil that is great! I haven't explored all of those possiblities yet, if the Maxim oil doesn't get the results I'm looking for, I'll look there next. I annealed it last night, and tonight I plan on re-HTing it again, last chance for this one..., as far as it being sold, if I don't get what I want, I'll probably break it and check out the grain structure, see if I can learn something! Thanks for chimming in, You are still Da' Man! Rex
 
You can also try brine if you dont have the correct oil. You will probably crack some blades but it can be done.

Thanks John,
I have used brine ONCE before, on my very first blade (which ended up not being my very first blade, it shattered!), this one is probably too thin at this point from being hand sanded half to death! I wouldn't say I won't ever use it again, I will say it will have to be either a desperate situation, or I just want to experiment to see what it would do. Thanks, Rex
 
Aldo my Brother from another Mother!!!,
How did you get a hamon without clay or some other insulating media?

Howdy neighbor...
When dealing with very shallow hardening steels (and Aldo's W2 is almost as shallow hardening as you can get) this can and will happen even with a full quench. You just can't cool the thicker sections quick enough to get them hard. I didn't believe it until I saw it myself and spoke with some folks more knowledgeable than myself... Sometimes the hamon resulting can have quite a bit of activity, with no clay involved.

Some old (1000+ years old) scramasaxes from Europe were polished and etched and show active hamons... general consensus is that it was a result of the nature of the shallow-hardening steel used, not clay.
 
Howdy neighbor...
When dealing with very shallow hardening steels (and Aldo's W2 is almost as shallow hardening as you can get) this can and will happen even with a full quench. You just can't cool the thicker sections quick enough to get them hard. I didn't believe it until I saw it myself and spoke with some folks more knowledgeable than myself... Sometimes the hamon resulting can have quite a bit of activity, withno clay involved.
Some old (1000+ years old) scramasaxes from Europe were polished and etched and show active hamons... general consensus is that it was a result of the nature of the shallow-hardening steel used, not clay.


GHEzell,

Great to hear from a fellow Alabamian! That is great info, my concern about that method is repeatably, and I have some, although not very high, expectations of what I might get. With what I've learned I think the consensus is that I didn't get it into the quench fast enough. And the oil I was using, so hopefully today with some DT-48 quench oil and some luck, I might get better results, at least something that I can put my name on! Thanks for the input, great info! Rex

BTW, you got a name? Surely your Momma didn't name GHEzell!
!
 
Hello Rex , Did the clay fall off near the tip ?? W-2 is a wierd steel to work with . I do all my HT by eye /color and lack of magnetism. It is a shallow hardening steel , I have polished the hamon off several times in my blade making ventures.
Because Differentially treated steel blades do not need to be tempered a lot , the spine if clayed properly will already be around 40 rc no need for double and triple temper. The japanese temper is in the fire for 30 -40 seconds or until blade reaches 300 f. Heat is a big enemy of hamons . A good measure for hamon width is 1/3 of blade. I would also suggest try a straight hamon ( suguha) . and then improve on that . W-2 is a water quenching steel . Try a small piece of steel about 6 in. long . when critical temp is met , try water quench for 3 sec. then right in to oil quench for 4 sec . That should really improve the visability of hamon. I never had much luck using the 11 sec quench on w-2 , I personally dont think its real good for producing hamons. Its just not hard enough quench . Good for quenching some steels but not water quenching steel like W-2 , hamon on w-2 steel only seems to come screaming and hollering and need a hard quench to become the things of beauty that they are . I hope this helps some . Good luck ... Bubba
 
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Hello Rex , Did the clay fall off near the tip ?? W-2 is a wierd steel to work with . I do all my HT by eye /color and lack of magnetism. It is a shallow hardening steel , I have polished the hamon off several times in my blade making ventures.
Because Differentially treated steel blades do not need to be tempered a lot , the spine if clayed properly will already be around 40 rc no need for double and triple temper. The japanese temper is in the fire for 30 -40 seconds or until blade reaches 300 f. Heat is a big enemy of hamons . A good measure for hamon width is 1/3 of blade. I would also suggest try a straight hamon ( suguha) . and then improve on that . W-2 is a water quenching steel . Try a small piece of steel about 6 in. long . when critical temp is met , try water quench for 3 sec. then right in to oil quench for 4 sec . That should really improve the visability of hamon. I never had much luck using the 11 sec quench on w-2 , I personally dont think its real good for producing hamons. Its just not hard enough quench . Good for quenching some steels but not water quenching steel like W-2 , hamon on w-2 steel only seems to come screaming and hollering and need a hard quench to become the things of beauty that they are . I hope this helps some . Good luck ... Bubba


Bubba,
I don't mean to dispute you, but with Aldo's 1084(v), I've used that same 11 second oil since I started, and it did great on it, it NEVER followed the clay, but it did make a really nice hamon. Now I know it's not the same as W-2, but it is the steel with that I have the most experience with. I have an update and will be posting pics next!!! Stay tuned the results are AMAZING...to me anyway!!! Thanks for the input, Rex
 
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