Salvaging Steel

Rob Nelson

Well-Known Member
Aloha!

I'm a scrounger - my son and I usually go for a run on the night before bulk trash pickup with our 3a flashlights and find all sorts of treasure. Alot of my tools, workbench, respirator, tool chest ... well the list is huge, all came from other folks bulk trash. Anyway, I see some folks making knives from lawnmower blades, etc. Is that recommended? Is there a way to tell which type steel it is? Bulk Trash day is coming up, and I want to know what to keep my eyes open for just in case theres steel worth salvaging.

Mahalo, Chaps
 
I say no.If you are looking for something to practice with,"found steel",may be ok.
I can tell you from experience,as cheap as 1095,or 1075 is,I would not not use found steel.
This is only my opinion,someone else should be along to offer more advice.

God bless,Keith
 
Keith, thanks! I've been practicing on saw blades in anticipation of some "good steel" ... hand grinding without having a curvy edge, etc. So maybe that's all it will be for.
 
I go with Keith on this. If you start with found steel you have to make a big assumption-the type of steel that it's from. There are lists that state what certain objects may be made from but the flip side of they might be made of a certain steel is that they might not be made from that steel. This leaves you with two possibilities. One is that you will have to experment to see what heat treatment works and the other is that there is no heat treatment that will work to make a good knife with the salvaged steel. You will have to exhaust the first possibility to arrive and the second possibility.

Some steels are fairly safe as far as type goes. Springs almost certainly have adequate carbon in them to make a usable knife but they could have stress fractures in them that would ruin the blade. Things that are already some type of knife blade, such as a chipper blade, are also probably safe but, then again, they can be a hardenable steel or carbide braised to a low carbon steel. They could also be case hardened low carbon steel.

Heat treating is the most important part of making a knife whether you forge or do stock removal. It's a whole lot easier to heat treat steel if you know what that steel is. I know that it's hard to turn down free steel but usually it's the best course of action.

Doug
 
What they said. Given the amount of labor that you will probably put into a knife to complete it, the cost for a known and appropriate alloy that will (hopefully) be predictable in heat treat is a small investment to (hopefully) insure that your efforts are not wasted.
Note: (hopefully) means that until you have learned and practiced your methods and procedures, few things in knifemaking are entirely predictable. The steel itself is the last thing you want to have to worry about.
 
I agree with the above posts. For the amount of time and effort that you're putting into making even a simple knife, you may as well spend a few bucks on a known good steel. 10xx steels are fairly cheap compared to most other steels.
 
I will also add,most of the free steel,that I have been given,or found,
that would make a good blade,was already about as hard as it was going to get.
Unless you have a way to get a good anneal it,and I didn't,it will dull your
belts prematurely.Costing you $$.
Hope this helps.

God bless,Keith
 
I agree as well, and here is the main reason if you are just starting out with knifemaking. The learning curve to get it all correct and get yourself started down a solid path will be steep enough with most of the variables under control, but with mystery steel the rules will change on you every time you start a new knife. Imagine your frustration when suddenly your heat treatment fails and yet you did nothing wrong and the steel is good but you just didn't have the right heat treatment for that alloy, and the only way to know is having a chemical analysis done on the steel, which would be more expensive than just buying a new bar. Now consider the time spent on getting the blade to the point of heat treatment, the abrasive wasted, files dulled, coal or propane burned etc... very quickly free mystery steel will become the most expensive material a maker can work with.

This thread is one example of how delighted I am with the progress that our craft is making. There was a time not so long ago when the use of scrap would have been encouraged and books on how to work it recommended. But reality has caught up with the mystique of custom knives and guys nailing the heat treat on known steels have lived up to the billing of their knives well enough to shed some light on the scrap steel issue.

And as for lawn mower blade steel, it really isn't much good for any cutting tool, including lawn mower blades! Manufacturers main concern is that they not ever come apart in use and harm anybody so they are intentionally softer. When I grew tired of resharpening blades after every other mowing, I started taking every blade I buy and cutting out 1" strips and inserting L6 edges properly heat treated for high impact cutting. I now just run over anything in my path and only resharpen perhaps once a year, and I like my blades good and sharp- no frayed tops on the Cashen lawn.
 
When I grew tired of resharpening blades after every other mowing, I started taking every blade I buy and cutting out 1" strips and inserting L6 edges properly heat treated for high impact cutting.

That's as cool as the other side of the pillow.

Now, I'm going to play devil's advocate... IF you are on the other side of the planet and the cost of having new cutlery-grade steel shipped to you is prohibitive, and IF you don't have a reliable way to fully HT it anyway and shipping it to a pro is too pricy, and IF you have some sort of belt grinder, and IF you do have a toaster oven or regular kitchen oven that's more-or-less reliable, you can make a pretty good knife out of a good file (American-made Nicholson or Simmonds; I can't vouch for others. DO NOT bother with cheap case-hardened India or China files). The point is to use a minimum of equipment and readily-available material.

The process is as follows:
1) Grind at least part of the file smooth so you see clean, bare metal. Re-temper the (very hard and brittle) file at 350-400 degrees F for one hour, let cool to room temp, repeat. This will bring its hardness back to a more manageable level - hard enough to keep a decent edge but not so brittle. On the bare spot you ground, you should now see a pleasant straw-yellow color, perhaps even bronze.
2) Further temper the tang area with a plumber's propane torch, taking care not to over-heat the blade itself. Keeping the blade area submerged in water while you heat the tang helps. You can turn the tang blue, purple or even heat it right up to orange, as long as you don't heat the blade that much. The purpose of this step is to soften the tang enough that you can drill holes for pins or bolts, while leaving the blade nice and hard.
3) Grind to shape and bevel on your belt grinder. Keep it cool! If the blade edge or tip turns blue you've heated/softened it too much and it won't hold an edge. You could do this with a new file but good gravy it will take a while... remember, this is still hardened steel.
4) Assemble and finish as usual. ,

Is this the best way to make a knife? Of course not. But it's cheap, easy and almost always preferable to the junk on most store shelves. If you're interested in making a decent file knife, let me know and I'll provide you with more links and info.

Having said all that, new steel and proper HT is definitely the way to go if you can. I still make the occasional file knife (hey, files wear out and I hate to throw anything away) but I don't warranty them to the same extent I do my "real" knives.
 
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James, you have probably hit on the one situation where working with mystery metal is probably necessary. Even in some industrialized, if not industrial, countries good knife making steel can be hard to come buy in small quantities and shipping is an iffy thing. We are lucky that we have a good sellection of steels available to the hobbiest maker and a reasonable expectation that items shipped will make it to their destination. This is not true everywhere.

Doug
 
If you feel obligated to use up flashlight batteries going through the big trash in the middle of the night, look for exotic wood for handles.
 
you can make a pretty good knife out of a good file (American-made Nicholson or Simmonds; I can't vouch for others. DO NOT bother with cheap case-hardened India or China files).

I remember the days when a worn-out file was always a good candidate for a knife project. Sadly, even the "good ones" seem to have went the wayside.

I just went through my "file inventory" at the shop.
In the Nicholson brand, I have over 55 different selections of type, length, and cut. Many of these were purchased by the case, bringing the total of Nicholson files close to 300.
That's just the Nicholson brand. I also have Simmonds, Vallorbe, Corradi, etc.

Of that approx 300 Nicholson files, about 100 have "made in Brazil" stamped on them. These were the ones most recently acquired.
They seem to cut and wear just as well as the others, but I like to purchase US-made when possible.

Discussions like this make me wonder if the manufacturer has not only changed locations, but also materials and processing procedures as well.
I called the supplier- Nicholson has closed operations at their Alabama plant. From here on out, all are made in Brazil and China.

Will post more as I find out more.


Rob
 
If you feel obligated to use up flashlight batteries going through the big trash in the middle of the night, look for exotic wood for handles.

Snow skis seem to be in the trash in spring time around here. Very nice handle material.

Rudy
 
I called the supplier- Nicholson has closed operations at their Alabama plant. From here on out, all are made in Brazil and China.

Will post more as I find out more.


Rob

I was afraid of that :( I've noticed the last few I bought were made in Brazil. As you said, they seem to work just as well as always. I haven't made a knife out of one yet, I guess I should and see how it compares. Soon as I get caught up on current projects... in other words, don't hold your breath! :)
 
Of that approx 300 Nicholson files, about 100 have "made in Brazil" stamped on them. These were the ones most recently acquired.
They seem to cut and wear just as well as the others, but I like to purchase US-made when possible.

Discussions like this make me wonder if the manufacturer has not only changed locations, but also materials and processing procedures as well.
I called the supplier- Nicholson has closed operations at their Alabama plant. From here on out, all are made in Brazil and China.

Will post more as I find out more.


Rob

From what I hear at the steel mill I work at (owned by the largest steel producer in the world), the unfortunate reality is that steels from Brazil and China are not only cheaper, but many times they are also just as good if not better made than a lot of the comparable steel made in US mills. Granted, this isn't necessarily true in all cases, but definiltey in enough to pose a healthy competition. In fact, a new US steel mill (ThyssonKrupp) located in Alabama is supposedly going to be receiving a majority of their steel slabs from Brazil as I understand it, and from what I've heard from management at our mill who have seen it first hand, they are producing very clean steel that is by no means inferior to what we are producing here in the US.
 
Their steel is sold in more markets than ours, and everyone wants quality, not just American consumers, so it only makes sense that their processes are improving to meet demand. Well so it sounds like I'll pass on the scrap, unless its scrap files, and pray somebody pitches a belt sander instead!
 
When you make a blade from mystery steel that doesn't turn out right you not only waste your time and didn't learn anything (other than grinding experience). You also wasted the belts and other consumables making a piece of trash.

You going to have a learning curve even with known steel so use it while you learn to grind so nothing is wasted. Even if the blades arent anything to look at you can still test them and see how your HT, edges, etc are working out. You don't know anything using a piece of mystery steel because you aren't comparing apples to apples.

I've never thrown a knife blade away without getting something out of it. Even if it didn't come out like I planned I learned something from it.
 
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