Has anyone heard of him and can give me some direction.

Gahagan

Well-Known Member
, I recently got an order from him and quoted him a price. He then started making changes and when I gave him a quote for the changes he seemed to get upset and said that I quoted him a price and he wasn't going to go any more since I wasn't a Journysmith. I told him that no I wasn't but that there are alot of maker that are not and produce great knives. I mostly do stock removal and from my understanding you must forge to get your Journysmith. There may just be a misunderstanding so I am trying to find someone that has worked with him to give me a some feed back. I simply quot according to the material and think I am on the low side as I usually make about .50cent to $1 an hour on my labor. But I am wanting to get my name out so I will do so until I feel I can charge more. I just love making and want to make them and don't want to loose a chance to get my knives out to others but I cant loose money to do so . I have not encountered this before and just would like some feed back.

Edit: after I thought about it I took out the name as it might hurt someones reputation or give the wrong idea. Can someone just provide me with some guidance in how I should handle the situation?
 
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I think you need to stick to your guns. Be polite but firm. Ocassionally someone will try to get all kinds of extras for the original price but not real often.
 
If he sent you an order, then his details should be outlined in that order. That is also what your quote was based on, so if there are changes to be made, that would obviously affect your quote. I see no reason for a rational person to change an order, then complain because it will cost more...
 
I Understand that and is what I told him. But it was surprising to me that because I was not a JS he figure my work inferior or something. How many people out there are JS or MS compared to those that aren't. Is it that big of a deal in the knife world. He says he has order hundreds of knives. and showed me pictures of about 50 of then so I can get a better understanding of what he likes. I would think he has some that are not JS or MS knives and realizes we all aren't and that it doesn't necessarily depict our work.
 
I agree with you completely, and I think it is the fault of that person for basically being closed-minded... To put it into terms that relate more to my own life, there are great mechanics out there who are not A.S.E. Certified, and just because someone doesn't have 9 Cisco Certifications, doesn't mean that he can't fix your computer network...

Please don't take what that guy said personally...
 
This is what we call in my old business an indicator. When I find a customer like this I politely decline the work.
I have had more than a few bad dealings when I was a pistol smith. Almost every time, there was an indicator I ignored.
Chris
 
,I just love making and want to make them and don't want to loose a chance to get my knives out to others but I cant loose money to do so . I have not encountered this before and just would like some feed back.

I would say that loving knife making is what makes us work our butts off learning all the necessary skills to be able to make the best possible tool we can, now a jerk like this comes along, I have to ask how much fun is it then? I'm lucky that I don't have to jump through hoops like that, while I want my knives to get into the hands of those that will be using them or collecting them, hopefully buying them, BUT, when someone puts pressure on me or in anyway degrades me, it kills my creativity. It makes me not like them, or anything I make for them, I would have probably told him to find someone else, if he disagreed with something as simple as price changes for additional work. He has shown you his "collection", probably did a bit of name dropping, and now wants to point out your not a JS, and use that as an excuse to get something for nothing? I'd probably tell him to take a hike, to find someone else to play with, but that's just me. When I get to selling more knives, I want the knives to be valued based on their merit, not on my status, as I don't HAVE a status! I'd simply let him know that the quote was for the original agreement, and I'd also charge him the full price for all changes, actually I wouldn't, because I wouldn't be making a knife for him, I would bet that once it's made he will send it back to you as soon as he gets it because he will find a scratch in it with a magnifying glass, or some other "fault", so he can send it back to you and you send it back to him, and then he'll probably send it back saying he found something else. I think my policy will be that if it comes back to me, I refund their money. Probably not the best way to do business, or the most profitable, but tell me one artist that paints or sculpts how many of their work is returned for more work? Once I call it done, it is done with what ever faults are in it, my prices like yours are entirely too low, and they know it, we do that so we can get our names out there, so more people can see our work. When you come up on someone that wants perfection for nothing, I'd tell him to call up a JS or MS, they are better suited to help him. Of course he won't, because he doesn't want to pay for it. Some folks get their jollies by causing other heartburn or discomfort, those are the ones that will cost you more money than you will make on a knife, and simply not worth the headaches. Personally, I'd pass, Rex
 
In the sign business sometimes we have to "Fire The Customer" I have a slider on my sign quoting software that is labeled "PITA discount" as you slide it to the right it looks like there is a bigger discount but in reality the price is increased. (PITA stands for Pain In the ___ ) I guess the programmer had a sense of humor, cause the customer normally never sees the screen. ;^)

Seriously though, if a customer starts out as a pain, he probably will not get easier to deal with.

ernie
 
if a customer starts out as a pain, he probably will not get easier to deal with.

ernie

Says it all right there. If he is willing to be unpleasant now, imagine if you actually take money from him. I would send him down the road with a polite dismissal, maybe he will be more tactful to the next maker he contacts.
 
If you were buying a car and you and the salesman agreed on a price, but then you said you wanted a bunch more options like a landau roof and power steering..... wouldn't you figure that the salesman would shoot you a new price for the additional options?
 
if you let him slid on this order, next thing you know 5 of his freinds will expect the same rate. like erine said if he is a pain now he will just get worse later. and i wouln't care if he has bought 10,000 knives he hasn't made one. lastly everone on the board ABS,KNIFE GUILD has delt with a peraon just like him.
 
Agreed with all the above:
and,how many of those knives he showed you were made by JS or MS makers?
There are a bunch of new makers hitting the spotlight in the last few years,who make great knives.
I've been seeing a lot of (relatively) new makers selling beautiful using and collectible folders in the $500-$700 range,(and more)
and those are stock removal knives.
There are some incredible newer makers making mind-blowing damascus and forged fixed-blades in the $500-$1000 range (and up)
who aren't JS or MS makers...
I don't recall the exact numbers,but I read awhile back there are approx. 200 (?) established makers for every "Card Carrying" Maker in North America.
I'm not a knifemaker yet,but refer to myself as a customizer/embellisher who designs and builds knives: over and above my material costs,
I make $2-$5/hr for my time...
There will always be some chump who says "you want how much?!!!?"...
Fortunately,there are 10 people for every idiot who realize that they're getting good value for their dollar.
 
I've been seeing a lot of (relatively) new makers selling beautiful using and collectible folders in the $500-$700 range,(and more)
and those are stock removal knives...

I don't do folders, but great googly moogly... sorry to drift off-topic but asking $500 for a user knife completely floors me.

Anyway, back on-topic... the customer is not being reasonable. Stick to your quote. Knifemaking is a business and sometimes clients forget that. We need to make a profit on our work, or else we'd be better off cranking out widgets in a factory somewhere.

Frankly, I get annoyed with the folks who seem to think that making knives is strictly a labor of love/charity and shouldn't involve fair compensation for labor, time and quality. Even the guys who have "real jobs" and make knives for fun put a heckuva lot of time and money into it. If it was all gravy, anyone could do it. There's an awful lot of research, skill, and plain hard work involved in a good handmade/custom knife and by golly, the maker deserves an honest wage for it.

Want a cheap knife? Go to Wally-World or make it yourself :)
 
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Want a cheap knife? Go to Wally-World or make it yourself :)

Well said.
I agree with the rest, tell him you just dont have the time because you are taking care of your other customers.
As for the numbers, you can check the ABS site, I dont know about JS but there are only about 125? MS in the world.
 
Some folks you just can't satisfy, when you get one like that it's time to move on. If he's that hard to deal with at the onset, you can only imagine what it be like later. Better to just end this politely and move on. These are the kind of guys that even if you give them everything they want they will still talk down about you in the end. Its apparent that he wanted your product at the start but quickly turned to disparaging remarks when things didn't go his way. Walk away from this one.

Jerry Fisher
 
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