sugar creek kiln

franklin

Well-Known Member
can anyone tell me if these are good kilns for 412 dollars that sounds to cheap its called jim bowie knifemakers kiln any feedback would help greatly since this would be my 1st kiln
 
can you set hold times on them or do you have to manually change temp that and i did not see what temp they will reach thanks for info jeff
 
I got the large kiln last year, It works fine.
I was a whisker away from getting an Evenheat kiln and this thing just about knocked on my door, so I bought it. It has the infinite switch instead of a controller but I'm always nearby anyway.They instruct you on not going above 2000 degrees but it's not a problem on anything I use. I specifically wanted a kiln to get into stainless steels and 1800-1900 degrees didn't make it blow up yet. I think it's a good starter model but sooner or later I'll get a controller set up.

Rudy
 
I picked up the same model with the Orton controller a few days before Christmas. It was a deal too good to pass up (thanks again Rusty). I haven't used it yet, but hope to use it soon if life ever settles down and allows me to get to it.
 
I have looked at there kilns and they looked good . Instead I went and built my own.after buying all the stuff I think I would have been better off buying one of theirs. the price is not much different....steve
 
My 2 cents for what it is worth.
I purchased the Big Knife Kiln with the Orton Programmable controller about 5 months ago. I have annealed, treated and tempered L6 and CPM 154 with it. If you can afford it, get the programmable controller. It is easy to use and really handy to have programs in memory.

Before I purchased, I spent a LOT of time researching the Paragon, Evenheat and Sugarcreek models. I spent a great deal of time on the phone with Sue from Sugarcreek and she was very helpfull. In my opinion, the Paragon seemed to be built heavier and Evenheat with higher amperage probably has faster ramp speed. I do like the fold-down front door on the Paragon better. That said, I am a hobby knifemaker, turning out 4 to 5 knives a month and the Sugarcreek fits my needs and pocketbook.
 
I spent a great deal of time on the phone with Sue from Sugarcreek and she was very helpfull.

I don't think enough has been said about Sue, she is incredible to work with, and will work with you any way she can. She even helped me get my computer control by breaking the cost up into 2 payments! You just don't see that kind of personal service anymore,(....well, except for Tracy and Lora.) She is so nice and her husband, who's name escapes me right now, is very nice as well, building and selling kilns is their life, they are a very small business, I think they have one, maybe 2, part time people, with them doing the majority of the work themselves. I think Sue's husband's name is Jim, anyway, he is very knowledgeable, and extremely helpful even after hours! I was having trouble understanding the instructions to install my computer control, and he even called me back, after hours, just to make sure I got it installed correctly. I can't say enough good stuff about them, while the design of my kiln (the large knifemaker) does leave a little room for improvement, the only thing that I don't like about mine is the way the door opens, it's more of an inconvenience than a flaw, the door opens "flip up" style, the benefit of this is only in the cost, as it doesn't need to have a locking mechanism to close it shut while in use, I simply put on my welding gloves get my hands orientated to be able to open the door with my right hand and use my tongs with my left hand to grab the tang and pull the blade out and right into the quench, I don't trust the door to stay flipped open, if it were to close with my hand in the door opening area it would be a bad scene. Do not trust the door flipped in the open position even when it's not hot, the fire brick construction would probably damaged if the door slammed shut. There is no doubt that, for the money, it can't be beat! Of course this is my opinion, based on my experience, when I chose this kiln, I chose it based primarily on the costs, the way it is constructed looked like it was very well made. While they have a huge following in the ceramics fields, they weren't as well known for their Knifemaker's Kiln, when I bought mine, I stumbled upon them doing an internet search, there was no way I could afford a Paragon or an EvenHeat, my other alternative was to build my own, which is what I was considering doing until I found them, after figuring the costs of materials, and the limitations my homemade kiln would have had, the choice was easy for me.

Until you talk to Sue, you won't understand how wonderful she is to deal with, she is friendly, easy to talk to, and if you ask will help you get the kiln you want. Ask for specials, if you need to, ask if she'll break the payments up, I wouldn't ask for more than making 2 installments, because they aren't set up to do that, but within reason she will work with you. I've had mine now for a year and a half, I guess (other than the door), the only thing that I would like to see improved in it is the speed that it heats up. Do understand it is slow, I don't know how fast the others get to heat, but this one is slow. That being said, I don't get in a hurry to do a lot of things when I'm working in the shop, so that's being pretty nit-picky. If you are cash strapped this is the kiln for you, with 10XX steels you don't have to have the computer control, I went without one for a year, BUT having it does increase your ability to HT other steels like ATS-34, and the CPM variety steels that require long soak times at high temps. The basic control that comes on it is difficult to keep the temp at a specific number. I can't imagine a 30 minute soak time having to sit there the entire time bumping the temp back and forth, keep in mind they do not warranty the kiln if you take it over 2000 degrees, now I don't know how they can tell if you were to do that, but for safety's sake I haven't taken mine that high, mostly because I use 10XX steels, 1550 is the highest I need, so that's not an issue. But now that I have the computer control, I have the option to use the SS steels that require the higher heat and longer soak times. Plus, I don't have to baby sit it the entire time a knife is in the oven, which allows me to work on other knives when I have one cooking. Hope this helps in anyones decision on which kiln to buy.

Please don't think I'm in any way putting the other kilns down, I'm not saying in anyway that the Paragon or the EvenHeat aren't worth their price. They are built with the specific purpose of HTing knives, while Sugar Creek's original purpose was to make kilns for the ceramic and glass makers. And basically added the knifemakers kiln as another type of kiln they could offer. I think they do a great job at making a knifemakers kiln that is affordable to most makers, that will perform as good as the rest of them, if it weren't for them I probably wouldn't have one yet, for that I'm thankful for them. Rex
 
i took all your guys advise and orderd the sugar creek from tracy hope to have it anyday now. thought i would update you all and will give a write up of it when i get it thanks dogs. yes and pics!
 
Wait till you have to unpack it.
I had to use a bread knife on all the foam packing just to get it loose enough to lift out of the box. Pics is good.

Rudy
 
I ordered one with the controller last week as well and hope it works well for me. I dont have any experiance in hting but it will help me out to have my own.
 
I ordered one with the controller last week as well and hope it works well for me. I dont have any experiance in hting but it will help me out to have my own.

Gahagan,
HTing isn't all that difficult, I would recommend sticking with basic high carbon steels, like 1084, 1080, and once you get more comfortable in the process then give 1095 a try. 1095 isn't the same "basic" high carbon steel as 1084. Much more difficult to get great results.

Everyone keep in mind, that while the Sugar Creek Kilns are GREAT! The highest "recommended" temperature is 1999 degrees, for the high end stainless steels, the HT temp for most of them is 1950 degrees for stainless steels like ATS 34 and many of the CPM steels. (The analog temp controller is a knob similar to the one on your kitchen oven without the temps on it, once you cut it on, the temp goes up until you adjust it, then it usually starts going down). What this means to knifemakers is that, if you don't have the computer control, it would be VERY RISKY to HT any of the stainless steels like
ATS 34, CPM 154,etc. Because without the computer controller, you have to "babysit" every knife you HT. I may be sounding like it's impossible to do, IT IS NOT. It is very simple to do, once you've done a few, you get a feel for how long it takes to get to 1000, 1300 and 1500 degrees. Once I got comfortable with mine, I could step away for a few minutes, because I timed the first 10 or so knives I HT'ed. I knew approximatley how long it took for mine to get to all the temps I mentioned above. It is a good practice to do, I'm not mentioning how long mine took, (do know it is SLOW!!!), because they are all a little different, where mine might be slower than yours, and I tell you it takes XX minutes to get to XXXX degrees, and if yours were to get there quicker, it could be a disaster! You should learn how long each temp takes for your individual kilns. It's safer that way.

If you start with 1084, I highly recommend getting your steel from Aldo Bruno (The New Jersey Steel Baron), his recipe for 1084(fg), the (fg) is why I like this steel SO MUCH!! It stands for "Fine Grain", which makes a huge difference with the end product. Plus he has Vanadium added to the steel when it's being smelted. Vanadium adds hardness without making it brittle, it is a wonderful steel and very easy to HT.

HT'ing 1084, I've both heard and read so many different temps, its easy to get confused. So I'll just tell you my entire process, do take into consideration that I may be leaving out some of the little things, that are important. I'll try to keep that to a minimum.

I've made it a habit to clean every blade with alcohol, to remove any oils, grit, grime, etc. After that I cut my oven on, (with the computer control, it is already programmed for 1084, I just go to the 1st program) position the blade in closer to the center of the kiln, without pushing it so far in you can't get it out comfortably (some of the ceramic blade stands (these are available from Wayne Coe) are handy to make sure you have the spine DOWN with the tang end pointed towards the door), the program is set at 1500 degrees, with a designated soak time,(programming this computer isn't by any means simple, it will take some time and there may be a need for a little bit of trial and error to get it right) I like to soak ("soak" means to leave it in the kiln at the desired temp for a set amount of time, this allows the heat to penetrate the entire blade) at the critical temp for maybe 10 minutes depending on the size of the blade I go the entire 10 minutes on thicker or longer blades, if it is smaller I will not let it soak that long, once the soak time is over, it's time to quench.

Quenching a blade at 1500 degrees is extremely dangerous. If you've never done it, I would highly recommend watching someone else do it in person or if you don't have that luxury, a video will do. Now if your comfortable handling that kind of temps, and well equipped for safety, you can do it, without seeing it done.


The first thing you
HAVE TO BUY is a LARGE FIRE EXTINGUISHER!!!

You can say, "I'll be careful", or "I'm not stupid", or any of a thousand different excuses NOT to buy an extinguisher, none of them will put a fire out!!! If you want to know a "real world" accident, give Murph a call, he told me what happened to him, and it all came down to 1 slip. He almost lost his entire shop! Quick thinking and smart decisions saved it, I'll let him explain the details.Now that you have that, I'd suggest a good pair of welding gloves, you cannot pull a knife out of a kiln at 1500 degrees barehanded, just the radiant heat can burn you, a leather apron is advisable, I have one, but I rarely use it unless I'm forging.

OK, so you've got all the safety aspects covered it's time to quench, it's not that difficult if you have prepared and set everything up properly. You have to have a quench tank capable of holding a minimum of 3 gallons, more is better if you plan on HTing several knives at one time, the hotter your quench oil gets the more the viscosity increases. I'm no expert on the metallurgical processes of quench oils, but the way I understand it, if your oil gets too hot it makes it too fast. 1084 requires a fast oil, some folks are successful with brine (which is basically salt water) with 1084, I DO NOT recommend it.

Position your quench tank very close to your kiln, you want to have your blade in the quench in about 2 to 3 seconds, yes that is quick and I would advise that you practice a few dry runs, actually using the blade you intend you to be HTing, practice taking it from the kiln to the tank until you've got it to one fluid motion. Use all the equipment you normally would use in order to get used to the way everything feels and make sure you can manipulate the gloves, tongs etc, the way I do it, once I open the door,(OK here is where I need to give you a stern WARNING!! The door opens from the bottom it is held closed by gravity, when open all the way, it will lean back a little, in this position it can easily fall closed, this will most definitely damage the door if it were to slam shut, I never trust it, I open it pull the blade out and close it never letting go of the door.

I grab the tang at the tip end with a pair of long handle tongs,
Your blade will be in the kiln with the edge up, spine down, you basically have to grab it upside down, or turn it over on the way to the tank, so that you are standing in front of the tank with it blade tip pointing away from you with the edge down and in one motion go from the kiln to the quench tank, once in the tank I agitate it back and forth, that means (and this is important), starting where you put the blade in the tank move the blade tip end to the other end of the tank WITH ZERO side to side motion, then back vigorously, continue using the same motion back and forth for about a slow 30 count. Size does matter, if it's thicker or a longer blade, increase the time in the quench, you will have to estimate the length of time you keep it in there, I like to be able to handle mine once they come out of the quench, usually a slow 30 count works fine. Do your best not to splash the oil out of the tank, if you fill it too full it can happen, make sure your tank is big enough to hold the amount of oil you think is enough, leaving you 3 to 4 inches of room at the top of the oil. Again, the minimum being at least 3 gallons, 5 would be better.

Also, have you chosen your quench oil? I've used Canola oil, McMaster Carr 9 sec. quench oil, and now I'm going to change to the new, Maxim Oils, DT-48 Quench Oil, that is the one that I would recommend, based on some of it that a couple of Knife Dog's tested it, it looks to be very effective in getting consistent results. I say "looks" because I haven't personally used it, but the guys on here that have, got GREAT results, testing their HT'd blades with a Rockwell tester. If you'd like, I can find the posts related to it. It looks like it's going to be a great quench oil and it's moderately priced, I think a 5 gallon pail of it was $62.50, plus shipping. Which is a very good price.

I hope this helps, if you need me to explain anything in more detail, or would like more pointers, or have ANY questions, I'd be happy to help any way I can. It is very exciting when your Hting your 1st blade, and even more once you
KNOW you've done it right. The satisfaction and results are well worth the effort, Good luck and
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!! on your purchase, you won't regret having this capability, it gives you total control of your knife making process. Do you know when it will be arriving? Like Rudy Joly said it is a bear to unpack, but if it wasn't for the packing it would be impossible to ship.

Another thing, make sure that you check it top to bottom, inside and out, for any damage, while they do an excellent job packing it up, no matter who they ship it with, there is still the chance of damage.

Enjoy! And lets see some pics when you get it, both before you unpack it, during and after. Rex

One more thing, wire it for 240, wired at 110, it isn't as strong, I couldn't imagine how slow it would be at 110. My electrician recommended going with 220/240 for best performance.
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I got the large kiln last year, It works fine.
I was a whisker away from getting an Evenheat kiln and this thing just about knocked on my door, so I bought it. It has the infinite switch instead of a controller but I'm always nearby anyway.They instruct you on not going above 2000 degrees but it's not a problem on anything I use. I specifically wanted a kiln to get into stainless steels and 1800-1900 degrees didn't make it blow up yet. I think it's a good starter model but sooner or later I'll get a controller set up.

Rudy

Rudy at those temps you are well below the recommended maximum temp, going over 2000 will do
nothing more than VOID the WARRANTY. It won't blow up, it may melt!<kidding> Sugar Creek added knife kilns to their line of Pottery kilns. I believe since that is their area of expertise they just stuck the same warranty info with the knife makers. With the same fire brick we use on forges, and the stainless steel on the outside for the shell, the worst I can think might happen is that it could melt the elements, which I really don't think will happen. Or it's something else based on their experiences. I might call Sue tomorrow and ask her. We'll find out for sure! Rex
 
Rex,
I was never really worried about the temps from the start. The second time I used the kiln I ran a piece of Ats-34 at 1975 for about 20 minutes just to "see" if I'd made a good purchase. I was fully prepared for the consequences but there were none. I used the kiln quite often since. Apparently nothing melted or broke. I'm not advocating doing reckless things but I push my tools full tilt just so I know what they're capable of.....always have.

Rudy
 
Rex,
I was never really worried about the temps from the start. The second time I used the kiln I ran a piece of Ats-34 at 1975 for about 20 minutes just to "see" if I'd made a good purchase. I was fully prepared for the consequences but there were none. I used the kiln quite often since. Apparently nothing melted or broke. I'm not advocating doing reckless things but I push my tools full tilt just so I know what they're capable of.....always have.

Rudy[/QUOTE



Rudy,
That was far from reckless Bud, and I'd say they would more than likely stand up to a lot hotter than that. BUT! I'm just the opposite of you, I do my best to NOT take anything to the limit, I guess it's my way of taking care of things, I baby everything I invest huge amounts money in, from the Toyota 4X4 I used to drive to the Cub Cadet Lawn Mower I have now, my shop equipment gets the same kind of care. At the same time I do find out what the limitations are, just a little at a time.

As far as the kiln goes, 1975 isn't a problem WITH the computer control, without it, the problems arise when you try to maintain the temps, WITHOUT going over 2000. Getting there is no problem, staying there with the analog controller is almost impossible it's a bump it down, bump it back up, bump it back down, kind of game. I eventually went ahead and sprung for the computer, and my heat treating life hasn't been better! If money is tight I highly recommend going that route. With high carbon steel it is not as critical and is preferred! It's when you venture into the high end stainless that the computer control is a necessity.

Also, I like warranties, I usually follow the guidelines so as not to void them, this way if something does break as I do have a knack for picking out the right one or in this case the wrong one!


I thought I would introduce myself, and ask a few questions to see if we can get to know each other better, mine is pretty simple, I'm 45 years old (physically). Mentally? 16!I've been making knives now for 2 years, almost every knife I've made was well over 12" or very close to it. I've made a few of smaller blades, I didn't like many of them, one of them I did like but I didn't nail the HT, so it gets dull PDQ. Other than that, which is easily fixable on the next one, the shape, style and look is pretty sweet! I made it to be a side pocket knife on my Carpenter pants, everything turned out great! I just couldn't believe I missed the HT! I'm a former Marine, married with 1 son and a step-son, spend a how lot of time at the Baseball and Football fields during their respected seasons. The rest of the time I'm cutting grass, building some new gizmo, or just maybe, I might be making a knife! Ok, that's pretty much about me, extremely simple, easy going, a helluvalotoffun! And that I guarantee!!! Looking forward to hearing back from you, Rex
PS It's late I'm tired and I can't keep my eyes open, so there will be some errors in this one, it's bed time at 10 til 2:00 AM! Nighty night!
So how long have you been making knives? And what is you preferred method of making them, is there anything special that you focus on? Any wicked talent at getting certain types of finished? I know I ask a lot of questions, but you seem like a pretty nice fella, thought I might like to get to know you a little better. There are so many things I plan doin
 
Hi Rex,
Don't get me wrong, by full tilt I mean that I push the tool to do what is claimed it will do. I've been in the building field since I was 15 years old and you learn real quick that you get what you pay for. Money comes third or fourth on the list when buying quality tools but they better do as they claim. As to going up to 1975 on the second try with the kiln, I really didn't know what to expect since it was my first kiln purchase and reading the warning not to exceed 2000. Although i will get the controller, I didn't find it all that difficult to keep it on temp.

I'll be 56 on the ninth of May. Mentally I'm still an embryo. Commercial construction supervisor. I've been making sharp things all my life but got serious in 1985-86. Like 99.9 % of us, BIG Bowies were the starting point but that quickly got squashed into more managable knives that people can actually use. What good is a knife if it sits in a drawer or case ? Most things I make now don't exceed 5" blades. I started out on stock removal with a grinder I made by screwing idler wheels and and 8" contact wheel right to my bench. A real Rube Golberg set up but it worked. I started forging within the last ten years and heat treated everything in my forge until I bought the kiln. I pretty much stopped making things that just sit around my shop. I get right on request orders and many have been for stainless, hence the kiln. I now have 3 2x72" grinders, 1 1x42", a mill, welder, 4 drill presses, 2 metal cutting saws and all the other doodads you collect doing this. Lets not get into my carpentry tools...too much to list.

Don't even mention ball games and birthdays......
I have 3 grown (married) duaghters and 8 grand kids, six of whom play everything they can sign up for. Talk about busy scheduals. If you don't show up for something, it's like the inquisition. Sadly, only my 12 year old grand duaghter will get in front of a grinder or forge with me. You'd think the boys would be more interested, they only want finished knives. Hope that answers some of your questions.

Nice meeting you,:biggrin:
Rudy

Wow my work reports are'nt even this long. Now I'm tired.
 
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any of the 3 common ovens in our business (Paragon, Evenheat and now Sugar Creek) will handle 2100F. Getting there may take a bit of time but they will all handle it.
 
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