How about a mokume forum?

CTaylorJr

Well-Known Member
I LOVE trying to make knives, and I love working with all things metal. But, since my visit to Bob's place, and him telling me about mokume, I've been an internet fanatic trying to learn all I can about how to make this stuff.

Thus far I've made mokume from copper/brass and made it from quarters and nickles, but I haven't ventured into precious metals and would like to see what others have done in this realm.

I did a search here on KD and found that I am not alone in this quest. I also visited several other forums related to knives and I have not yet found one dedicated to the making of mokume gane.

I suggest that a new forum section be made dedicated to makume making and use on KD...

What do others think?

Charlie
 
Guess I created a mokume monster.

You are going to LOVE damascus making. I guess I better get my press fixed up and the forge finished and a stand for the anvil and and and and and
 
Guess I created a mokume monster.

You are going to LOVE damascus making. I guess I better get my press fixed up and the forge finished and a stand for the anvil and and and and and

Bob, you are correct! LOVING the mokume! But at the same time, I REALLY want to learn the damascus practice as well!

About the press and anvil... Yeah, I'm ALL OVER THAT! What do you need? and WHAT do I need to "acquire"?

Charlie
 
I was at Delbert's damascus Ashokan talk last year.

You really don't want to miss what he has to say about mokume!
 
Charlie, we are good on the damascus, just bring the steel you have and your mokme so I can see it. I have al we need for the damascus and the cable damascus.

May need your help moving a few things around but that will not be much.

Bob
 
Hi, I received a notice about this thread from Google. Thought I would stick my head in. You will find a lot of info on Mokumé here: http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/orchid.htm There are three videos in the Bench Tube section. See The Orchid Form archives and don't forget to stop by www.reactivemetals.com.
On my site go through the Mokumé section and click on everything with a red shadow behind it Be glade to help in anyway we can.
Have fun, Bill
 
Sorry for the late reply folks... Had a bug hit me over the weekend...

I love everything that Delbert is talking about (not to mention his work), but some of us don't have the electric heat treat systems, and the "tutorial" doesn't go on to say HOW one goes about cleaning, prepping, etc...

Delbert, you make some KILLER stuff for sure, and I HOPE to get to that point, but for those of us that want to experiment with our little forges, stacking pieces inside of a torque block, the tutorials that are out there really don't help much. Now if you want a tutorial on how to make "mokume" from clay, there is a LOT of stuff!

I have been playing with it a bit since Bob and I talked and I have made some "decent" billets, but I would like for a spot to be available for us to share lessons learned and such... How many folks on here WANT to try this, but have no place to go to try and learn?

How many folks want to try this but ONLY have a small MAPP gas forge to try it with? How many folks on here have seen the AMAZING creations that others have come up with, but they are afraid to try it since they don't have the ovens, kilns, or KNOWLEDGE to try?

For the record, the pic below was made from dimes in a SMALL forge made from sheet metal, kaowool, and fed with MAPP gas... Yep, got a little porosity, but the little coins stuck together!

DSC_0328.jpg


This was a test to see if the things I had seen on the net, and had heard from Bob, would work... It seemed to...

Now, did I have a clue what I was doing? NO, not at all, I have been going about this on my own. Yeah, I could have asked for help, but I am a bit hard headed...

My postings are NOT to slight anyone out there, OR berate them in any way. I would just like to see some "starter" tutorials" for those like me that want to learn.

Charlie
 
Charlie,
I Posted the tutorial at that time I was working on a project. I do this for a full time job and generally have to fit extra things in the cracks. It just so happens that I will be working on some mokume done in the forge in a few weeks. It is good that you posted this now, because I will take the time to photo-document the work I do and put it into a tutorial. I get in the habit of doing things and really have to think about how to explain what exactly I am doing to make it clear to everyone. Thats OK, it makes me a better teacher. Thanks for the compliments and believe me I know how frustrating it is to know the info is out there somewhere if only you could find it. I started out at a time when it was popular to keep secrets and before any of the forums existed, and it was 8 years before I met another knifemaker.
I'll let you know when I post the new tutorial and you let me know if there are details you would like included(#1 cleaning and prepping)
Thanks
 
Delbert,

Where would someone go to get the gold, silver and other materials to make mokume. I can get brass and copper but want non-tarnishing stuff of a higher grade.

Will the tutorial you will be doing in the next couple weeks be the same procedure for these materials as for copper and brass?

Also, is there a place somewhere that tells which materials can be used with which other materials? I will assume that the melting point of all materials needs to be pretty close or one material would melt and the next would still be cool, no adhesion would be made and just a mess.

Also on pattern manipulation. Am I correct to think you work this material hot and quench after a while to anneal? Forging hot or cold would work harden the material I would think and annealing would be required to continue working it. Are patterns like twist possible or will the material not hold up to that much stress?

As you can see I don't know that much about it but if I can make nice slow to tarnish materials, I would sure like to learn how.

Charlie and I can go out to my shop and go nuts with this.

We are going to have to build Charlie a little larger forge I think. Get off the Mapp and onto propane.

Thanks for any help.
 
Bob,
Wow you really took the question thing seroiusly!
Ok here goes;
Rio Grande is a good place to shop that is open to public sale, there are many others, but most require proof of business ownership.
The tutorial I already posted works best for precious metals, I will be using copper and nickel silver in my next tutoriol and fused in a forge, I have done precious metals in a forge(the same one I use to make damascus) but it is a bit unnerving to risk melting a couple thousand dollars worth of gold and silver in a forge.
I would recommend Ian ferguson's book on mokume gane if you are serious about trying different combos, he has a compatibility chart, but it is not a gospel, there are more possible combo's than you might think.
Some combo's can only be worked cold, anything with sterling silver must be worked cold, as sterling is very hot short(it crumbles when worked hot) and some combo's can be worked hot or cold. Cold work combo's need frequent annealing, but that is the nature of the beast.
Twisting is possible, even with the cold work alloys.
More later.
 
Copper and brass it is.

Man that stuff is pricey. I understand the apprehension to stick that in a forge. One screw up and you can go broke.

So, is there a way to make copper and brass less likely to tarnish? How about using a cheap silver wedding ring from Wally World and using it as a liner and adding copper and brass on the outside, can it be sealed so nothing turns green?
 
Yes you can line the ring with silver and if you practice silver soldering you can add rail to the sides of the ring and you won't have problems with turning you green.

Try copper and nickel silver, it provides a better contrast than brass and copper. Or even better silver and copper with a silver liner, that is a real cool combo!!!
Thanks,
Del
 
Del and Bob,

First off, I am looking forward to the extras in the next tutorial! Del, I've looked at a LOT of your work and it really intrigues me. Mokume work is quickly reminding me of the wood work I have done since childhood. You can copy the same basic shape many times over, but each piece will be unique due to the grain structure of the "substrate".

2nd, I plan to get REAL crazy on this stuff Bob! I have 3 knives I need to finish but have been working with the mokume too much to finish them! :what!: This stuff is a LOT of fun to mess with.

I've done the copper/brass/copper, etc strips and it came out pretty well, but as you noted, it will tarnish in short order. A couple of the test pieces I have messed with look pretty good after sanding to 2000, buffing, and then final polish with wax. Thus far these have kept a shine even after repeated handling. My guess is that it will need constant maintenance, or lacquering, to keep the shine for an extended period.

The little I did with nickel silver strips and copper is doing much better than the brass/copper, but it too will need maintenance at some point. Precious metals would be best for longevity, but at this point in my experimentation I am NOT willing to fork over the cash... Perhaps I'll get brave in a few years! :lol:

Now, about my forge... I have a freon tank that I am going to attack in the next few days. I have 2" kaowool and all of the parts to make a propane feed for the critter. All I need now is some form of refractory to coat the wool with.

Once the new forge is complete I should REALLY become a monster! :biggrin:

Charlie
 
I have some stuff to coat the kaowool with. It is like ATC100 but called something else Plistix I think. I have two forges to do but should have some left over.

I have a deal for you that we need to discuss when you bring out the stuff you have.
 
Here ia a knife I put fine silver and shakudo mokume on. I made the shakudo and then rolled it into sheet. It is my opinion that copper and fine silver is the easiest to make and manipulate.
84435_2_b.jpg

the rings behind the guard were made from a bar that was twisted and then split down the middle.
 
Three cheers for Charlie lol......I too have had the mokume gane bug bite me big time......I love it it has so many uses on knives or jewelry etc etc

both midgett+binnion are so busy doing there thing. there are so few teaching it sad to say...I use to have a mokume gane group on yahoo with james binnion in it but so few posted i pull the plug...id love to see a section devoted to it in here.....(hint hint lol) so far ive only done the $4.00 quarter thing ...going to try dimes next lol..i will be buying a rolling mill and a electric kiln as soon as i figure out what one is best..in the next few days ill buy a hole punch from rio grande so i can make rings,now that i found out how to do rings.lol

midetts books are out of print,thou a few of the cd are to be had..i have my favorite book of a things metal...my bible....."jewelry concepts and technology" by oppi untracht the godfather of metalsmithing imho...a true must for people who work in metal...

take a look at james binnion tea pot and try figure out how he did it...its still got me baffled..its a work of true art
 
man ill be following this just got to see some done at tracy's hammer inn this weekend looks like a good thing to learn
 
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